Mash Temp/Strike Temp/Modern Conversion Time

[Cory001]

I want to open a discussion on a topic I have been thinking about lately. Trust me I know I am over thinking this... its what I do.

Since research has proven that most modern grains are at least 80% converted in the first 15-20mins. And brewers that use the method of adding higher strike water to the grain to achieve their mash temp. And also, intentionally overshoot our strike temp slightly (easier to lower the temp than raise it). Assuming we take about 15mins to dough in and wait for our temp to settle down to mash temp. Wouldn't that mean we have officially converted at that higher temp?

I do know that most people (maybe 7/10) wont notice any difference in a 2 beers mashed 5 degrees apart. And mash time can also effect the dryness/sweetness level. I guess I'm just trying to keep in mind those 3 other people. LOL.

Thanks and lets discuss!

 

[Minbari]

I want to open a discussion on a topic I have been thinking about lately. Trust me I know I am over thinking this... its what I do.

Since research has proven that most modern grains are at least 80% converted in the first 15-20mins. And brewers that use the method of adding higher strike water to the grain to achieve their mash temp. And also, intentionally overshoot our strike temp slightly (easier to lower the temp than raise it). Assuming we take about 15mins to dough in and wait for our temp to settle down to mash temp. Wouldn't that mean we have officially converted at that higher temp?

do a mash and run an iodine test every 5 minutes and see. sometimes I still see significant starch even after 30-40 minutes. sometimes it is done by 30 minutes.

I use the higher strike temp because I almost always step mash, so getting the first step correct is important.

I do know that most people (maybe 7/10) wont notice any difference in a 2 beers mashed 5 degrees apart. And mash time can also effect the dryness/sweetness level. I guess I'm just trying to keep in mind those 3 other people. LOL.

Thanks and lets discuss!

I guess it depends on where that 5 degrees is. the difference between 140° and 145° is pretty significant as is the difference 150° and 155°. push another 5° and you will find you have a very dexterous mash and fermentation may not do what you think.

overthinking and tight control is in my nature. but also, the more repeatable you can make your mash, the more consistent the results will be, IMHO

 

[Cory001]

I guess it would be nice to see an experiment - a mash brought up to temp quickly and controlled evenly(prol electric) vs. the traditional home brewers way of 10 gallon cooler. Has brulosophy done this?

overthinking and tight control is in my nature. but also, the more repeatable you can make your mash, the more consistent the results will be, IMHO

Yes I am right there with you on that!

 

[Minbari]

I guess it would be nice to see an experiment - a mash brought up to temp quickly and controlled evenly(prol electric) vs. the traditional home brewers way of 10 gallon cooler. Has brulosophy done this?



Yes I am right there with you on that!

my setup uses a herms coil(50ft of 3/8") with 5 gallons of water in it, plus a 1500W rims tube for quick changes. definately can change temp quickly. first few times I had done this exact experiment. even on highly converted grains, I think 15-20 minutes is overly optimistic unless you are ok with your mash being mostly converted. that will lead to higher FG and possibly more mouthfeel, but efficiency will suffer.

 

[Cory001]

Nah, I mash for 1 hour. I'm just saying about 80% is converted in 15-20mins. Gotta mash longer for that efficiency and gelatinization.

 

[dmtaylor]

Conversion of starch to sugars of various kinds happens very quickly. However, many of these sugars are complex dextrinous ones that continue to be broken down to simpler sugars given more time. It is for this reason that we need to mash not for just 15-20 minutes but for a while longer. After much experimentation 20 years ago, I have been mashing for 40 to 45 minutes for most of my beers. Well over 100 batches. I found the limiting variable to be not efficiency but rather fermentability, i.e., attenuation. I found that in single infusion mashes of 30-35 minutes, sometimes my beers would attenuate well but sometimes not, about a 50/50 chance either way. But in bumping this up to just 40 minutes, the attenuation never suffered. So 45 minutes is my standard today. No need to mash longer unless high attenuation is required. Then I'll typically go 75 minutes, maybe 90 minutes if I need it really dry.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Mash saccharification conversion is complicated process and can't be summed up so easily. Keep in mind there are two separate enzymes that work in conjunction and at different temperatures. Beta amylase enzyme that denatures above 149F (65C) and alpha amylase that can survive to 168F (75C). So when the strike water is allowed to exceed 149F for a long period, it's likely to denature the beta enzyme, leaving the alpha to do the work. Alpha and beta work together to create the sugars in wort. The beta "nibbles" at the ends of the starch molecules and the alpha breaks them them up in the middle. When the alpha breaks up these molecules in the middle, it creates more ends for the beta to nibble on. More nibbling makes more fermentable wort, less nibbling mean higher final gravities.

Beta and alpha also prefer a different pH. Beta likes it lower and alpha likes it higher, so a balance between the two is preferred.

So what are the conditions that these claims are based on? Higher temperatures will convert the starches much quicker, but the beta enzymes can only work for a short period because they are in the process of denaturing above 149F, so even if the wash is cooled back down the beta enzymes are reduced or in extreme conditions, gone completely. The conversion shows complete, but the ABV of the beer is reduced and the final gravity is raised.

Lower temperatures favor the beta enzyme and alpha will work at those temperatures, but it will be slower. That's why lower mash temperatures are held longer and higher mash times can be much shorter. Both methods will convert sugars, but the higher temperature will produce more complex sugars that the yeast may not be able to metabolize as easily.

The key to consistency is tight control of every aspect of the brewing process. The mash and fermentation are the most critical to a consistent beer, so being anal retentive is beneficial to good beer.

Assuming an hour for conversion has long been the standard time for mash, I see no reason to cut it short other than to save a little time. Let the enzymes do their work. Your patience will pay off with consistently good beer.

 

[Minbari]

Mash saccharification conversion is complicated process and can't be summed up so easily. Keep in mind there are two separate enzymes that work in conjunction and at different temperatures. Beta amylase enzyme that denatures above 149F (65C) and alpha amylase that can survive to 168F (75C). So when the strike water is allowed to exceed 149F for a long period, it's likely to denature the beta enzyme, leaving the alpha to do the work. Alpha and beta work together to create the sugars in wort. The beta "nibbles" at the ends of the starch molecules and the alpha breaks them them up in the middle. When the alpha breaks up these molecules in the middle, it creates more ends for the beta to nibble on. More nibbling makes more fermentable wort, less nibbling mean higher final gravities.

Beta and alpha also prefer a different pH. Beta likes it lower and alpha likes it higher, so a balance between the two is preferred.

So what are the conditions that these claims are based on? Higher temperatures will convert the starches much quicker, but the beta enzymes can only work for a short period because they are in the process of denaturing above 149F, so even if the wash is cooled back down the beta enzymes are reduced or in extreme conditions, gone completely. The conversion shows complete, but the ABV of the beer is reduced and the final gravity is raised.

Lower temperatures favor the beta enzyme and alpha will work at those temperatures, but it will be slower. That's why lower mash temperatures are held longer and higher mash times can be much shorter. Both methods will convert sugars, but the higher temperature will produce more complex sugars that the yeast may not be able to metabolize as easily.

The key to consistency is tight control of every aspect of the brewing process. The mash and fermentation are the most critical to a consistent beer, so being anal retentive is beneficial to good beer.

Assuming an hour for conversion has long been the standard time for mash, I see no reason to cut it short other than to save a little time. Let the enzymes do their work. Your patience will pay off with consistently good beer.

good reminder for the science behind why we do what we do.

I knew there was a reason I always start my sac rest about 146F and work up to about 158F. mostly I found that unless I am going for a specific mouthfeel or higher residual sugar, that method has the best results.

 

[Cory001]

Im not trying to cut the time down. I am ok with a 1 hour mash. My question was if we over shot our mash temp by 5 degrees, doughed in, and waited for it to fall to the desired temp before sealing it up. And assuming that step took 15mins. Wouldn't we have effectively done 80% of our conversion at the said 5 degrees? Higher than expected.

 

[Minbari]

Im not trying to cut the time down. I am ok with a 1 hour mash. My question was if we over shot our mash temp by 5 degrees, doughed in, and waited for it to fall to the desired temp before sealing it up. And assuming that step took 15mins. Wouldn't we have effectively done 80% of our conversion at the said 5 degrees? Higher than expected.

I bet not. when I set the strike temp and then add grain it is almost instantly the correct temp. the grain lowers the temp really fast.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Im not trying to cut the time down. I am ok with a 1 hour mash. My question was if we over shot our mash temp by 5 degrees, doughed in, and waited for it to fall to the desired temp before sealing it up. And assuming that step took 15mins. Wouldn't we have effectively done 80% of our conversion at the said 5 degrees? Higher than expected.

It depends on a lot of different parameters. If you over shoot a mash you want to rest at 147-148F by 5 degrees, it would put the be above it denature temperature by a few degrees. The beta enzyme would be at it fastest conversion rate, but would start to denature and it may be gone by the time the temperature drops to the target temperature. If your rest was 153F and you overshot by 5 degrees the beta enzyme would likely denature much faster at that temperature than if it was doughed in at your target temperature. The mash converts faster at higher temperatures, but it may change the beer. You get extremely fast conversions at 160F. So the answer to the question is not going be a simple one. More like a “ it depends on” answer.

Just keep in mind that enzymes work the fastest at their denature temperature.

 

[Donoroto]

Im not trying to cut the time down. I am ok with a 1 hour mash. My question was if we over shot our mash temp by 5 degrees, doughed in, and waited for it to fall to the desired temp before sealing it up. And assuming that step took 15mins. Wouldn't we have effectively done 80% of our conversion at the said 5 degrees? Higher than expected.

My opinion is that the cooler grain brings the water immediately close to each grain bit down in temperature very quickly and early.

I mash in over maybe 3-4 minutes max, so maybe that first dump of 2/3 of the grain sees higher heat, but that extra heat disappears in a minute or three. Not long enough to matter.

Again, just speculation.

 

[Craigerrr]

I have often wondered about what happens when you slowly add grains, and they are initially well above target mash temperature. I suppose though that the enzymes don't go to work so quickly. Ahhh, the mystery of it all, isn't it great!

 

[Cory001]

I have often wondered about what happens when you slowly add grains, and they are initially well above target mash temperature. I suppose though that the enzymes don't go to work so quickly. Ahhh, the mystery of it all, isn't it great!

Yup, I've thought about that as well. Go slow, don't want them dough balls. I imagine it still wouldn't matter much in the end?

 

[Craigerrr]

Yup, I've thought about that as well. Go slow, don't want them dough balls. I imagine it still wouldn't matter much in the end?

Funny, I always start slow, but eventually dump it in in greater amounts. I've never really had any dough ball issues though.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I have always tried to be conscious of the water cooling down while pouring in grain and doughballs trying to strike a happy medium. My biggest variable with strike water is ambient temperature. Most of the year I know the grain will cool my water 6 to 8 degrees F. It was damn cold last weekend, and I estimated 10 degrees. I hit the mash temp dead on.
I wish it would have been like today last weekend. I love brewing when it is in the 70s and 80s
.