Italian Pilsner

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by Iliff Avenue Brewhouse, Jul 8, 2021.

  1. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    I guess it comes down to which calculator I want to trust. The brewfather app is giving me about 65% which aligns with Brad's Smith's numbers. I will look for some alternate calculators and see if I can find more of a consensus.

    [​IMG]
     
    Trialben likes this.
  2. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    The very real potential exists for NO calculators to be "correct".
     
  3. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    Very true. It's basically just a number that your palate has to adjust to right? For me I guess it's dialing it in to where 37 IBUs tastes like 37 IBUs to me even if the actual figure is higher or lower.
     
    Trialben, Megary and Silver_Is_Money like this.
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    10,224
    Likes Received:
    8,264
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Pretty close to local...
     
  5. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    The boys over at aha are advising me to go with the lower figure for utilization.
     
  6. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    What is their justification?
     
  7. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
  8. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    Does utilization with respect to elevation pertain directly and confidently to pellet hops, or only to whole/leaf/plug related types?
     
  9. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    I would assume to all hops since it’s based on boil temperature. Whole hops get about 10% less utilization than pellets in general due to structure.
     
  10. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    The 10% thing is fantasy.

    But I'm now fully buying that the older Guertz method for elevation adjustment is off by a bunch, and the chart you posted in #21 to this thread is much closer to the proper way to go here.
     
  11. Sunfire96

    Sunfire96 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    9,582
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    RVA
    Why do you say it's fantasy that whole cones have 10% less utilization of alpha acids compared to pellets?
     
  12. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    319
    Likes Received:
    233
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    Home Page:
    #32 Silver_Is_Money, Jul 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
    For one, because Tinsith (who never once tested a pellet hop) stated that for pellets "All bets are off" (meaning with regard to his research and IBU's calculation formula). For another, if you look up the dissertation titled "What's Your IBU", by Michael L. Hall, Ph.D many of Tinseth's competitors have ideas here that are nowhere near a factor of 10% (or 1.1). Mosher says the factor is 1.33. Noonan says it scales from 1.0 to 1.5. Garetz had 1.1, but only from 10 to 30 minutes into the boil, else unity. But at a major hops symposium held in Germany a few years ago a guy named Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D, at Hillsdale College gave a pellet hops utilization presentation that put a fork into the presumptions of all of these guys. And he found that pellet hops deliver nigh-on all of the IBU's they are ever going to deliver by about 40 minutes into the boil, as opposed to by about 90 minutes for the various of whole hop derivations. And he also found that within only a few minutes of boiling a pellet hop has already delivered a rather huge percentage chunk of its total potential IBU's, whereas a whole hop derivation is hardly getting started.
     
  13. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    10,224
    Likes Received:
    8,264
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
  14. Sunfire96

    Sunfire96 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    3,320
    Likes Received:
    9,582
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    RVA
    #34 Sunfire96, Jul 10, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2021
    I guess my question relates to the efficiency of alpha acids from the hops being isomerized through the boiling process, not the theoretical calculations of IBUs via calculation using the methods of Tinseth vs Rager vs others. One IBU is defined as 1 mg iso-alpha acids per L of beer, which is measured chemically via mass spectrometry or gas chromatography, which makes it an empirical observation, as opposed to a theoretical calculation utilizing a recipe calculator (or self calculations). It has been shown empirically that because a hop pellet has been processed and about 10% of non-bittering hop material removed (in T90 pellets, not T45), the lupulin glands (and associated alpha acids) are more readily isomerized than a hop cone, where the lupulin glands are still physically attached to the bracts and bracteoles of the cone, making isomerization of alpha acids ~10% less efficient. YMMV
     
  15. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    Which software? I use beersmith 2 which doesn’t have that feature.
     
  16. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    10,224
    Likes Received:
    8,264
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Brewer's Friend. You put your altitude into your profile then the software adjusts efficiency.
     
  17. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    I don’t see it. Because I’m a trial member?
     
  18. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2018
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    497
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lakewood, CO
    Wow just found it no idea. 83%. Not sure what source to trust at this point. Guess trial and error.
     
  19. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    10,224
    Likes Received:
    8,264
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    Keep trying, use what works.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white