First Wort

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by cowboy7307, Dec 5, 2020.

  1. cowboy7307

    cowboy7307 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Zombie Dust Clone - EXTRACT
    was looking at this recipe
    1oz citra First wort no boil and was getting a ibu of around 20
    what is first wort? and with no boil why is ibu so high
    Sorry if this is a stupid question but i have never heard of it
     
  2. BarbarianBrewer

    BarbarianBrewer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2017
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    1,259
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    First Wort Hopping (FWH) is used in all-grain brewing and is where you add hops to the boil kettle as you are draining your mash tun. With an extract, you aren't doing the mash, so FWH doesn't apply. I have never done a no-boil brew so I can't answer your second question. Maybe, if you are trying to use FWH with an extract brew the brewing software is getting confused.
     
  3. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2015
    Messages:
    3,790
    Likes Received:
    7,362
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Can you post the recipe? For a Zombie Dust clone you're going to want a lot more IBU's than 20.
     
    Josh Hughes likes this.
  4. Dogwood

    Dogwood Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Door builder/semi retired
    Location:
    Holcombe WI
    Why or what diff does it make to add hops while draining the mash tun as to adding at boil? Was at a local brew pub last night and the brewer mentioned doing this but couldnt explain why!
     
  5. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,630
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Longer hop exposure time. Since the wort is around 170 if a mash-out has been done, that's in the range of hop isomerization. Oils and acids are leeched out of the hops for the sparge period which may be fairly long in some systems.
    The down side is that a lot of the more volatile molecules are boiled off but the extra acids remain for a more effecient bittering addition. I don't think it's particularly useful at the homebrew level where saving 10% on bittering addition means a few cents but at large scale that bit of savings adds up. Even at a pro level, it's not that common, AFAIK.
    And for the OP, first wort hopping has zero applicability in extract brewing, especially no boil.
     
  6. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,548
    Likes Received:
    6,881
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    If you're looking for the precise chemical reasons, we don't know. Longer contact time and lower temperature reactions between hop and wort components are likely the reason, I've heasd glycosides mentioned. I've read numerous times that FWH gives a finer, gentler bitterness, I've experienced it and that's good enough for me.
     
    Sunfire96, Trialben and Josh Hughes like this.
  7. Steve Ruch

    Steve Ruch Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2020
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Are there any steeping grains in your recipe?
    Putting hops in with them might mimic first wort hopping.
     
    BarbarianBrewer likes this.
  8. Dogwood

    Dogwood Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Door builder/semi retired
    Location:
    Holcombe WI
    So, therefore, if I do a 15 gal batch, by the time I get the mash tun drained, it's well below the 170 degree temp. I can just raise the temp in the book kettle to 170 and add hops for a few and slowly raise the temp to boiling for the same effect? I am thinking of doing mash one day and boil and finish the next but the mash would cool way down overnight. Should I bring the mash temp back up to 170 before vorloufing (spelling isn't my strong suit) or does the sugar stay in the West after cooling?
     
  9. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,548
    Likes Received:
    6,881
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    There is a way for extract brewers to FWH: Heat water to 170 degrees, add extract AND hops, stir to dissolve. Then heat to boil. It's not precisely the same, the extract has already undergone the transformations of a boil, but it does work.

    As far as temperature control during FWH, not really necessary in my opinion. When I start my first runnings, I add the hops. The wort cools while I'm (batch) sparging, then warms again when I add the sparge runnings. Then, when I fire the kettle, the wort with hops warms through 170 degrees on its way to boiling, 202 degrees here. As JA mentions, the few cents' worth of hops aren't really an argument for FWH. I've read research that indicates it provides a superior hop flavor and gentle bitterness but it's not known how it works.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  10. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    4,066
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    It does have an impact but I'm not sure it's significant. I do it because it removes the boil over issues from tossing them in at full boil and I don't have to pay attention to them.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  11. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2020
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    1,207
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer
    Location:
    Atlanta
    My oin
    My opinion* is that you should use care allowing the wort to cool: the chance of infection or contamination is very high below 150-160F. Keep it all clean and sealed you should be fine. But best is to avoid it.

    *That and a dollar will get you a dime.
     
  12. Dogwood

    Dogwood Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Door builder/semi retired
    Location:
    Holcombe WI
    more than enough reason for this, thanks for the wsudom!!
     
    Trialben likes this.
  13. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    4,066
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Yeah the general wisdom is it's about 10% more than doing them at boil and if you want to buy into the other lore around it go for it but the boil over is what I like about it.
     
  14. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    9,548
    Likes Received:
    6,881
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Aurora, CO, USA
    I'll take George Fix's word as fairly substantiated lore.... Of course that was with "commercial" style beer, light lagers. You start throwing bitter dark malts in and I'm sure the difference between FWH and boil hopping vanishes fairly quickly.
     
  15. Dogwood

    Dogwood Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Door builder/semi retired
    Location:
    Holcombe WI
    #15 Dogwood, Dec 7, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
    Yes but, it goes in the boil the next morn and kills every ting? There was a thread a while ago and several fellow brewers said they did this regularly. I have a hard time letting the wert flow from the mash as slow as I should so I may let it drip by drip through the night and get max sugar out of it instead of doing it in 20 mins from the tun to the boil kettle. I have a hard time believing big brewers, 5 kegs and larger, take a day or two getting the fluid out of the mash tun? I am usually doing a 15 gal batch and patience only lasts for so long! Beer tastes amazing however fast it comes out!
    This site is amazing, thank you all for the info!! You never stop learning!!
     
  16. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,728
    Likes Received:
    10,525
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    If your going to mash one day and boil the other I'd make sure your done with the grains it doesnt take long for spent grain to go off.
    If it were me I'd take it all the way to the sparge then add your FWH and seal up the kettle let it cool overnight then hit the heat in the morning and continue on with the boil.;)
     
  17. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,630
    Likes Received:
    2,888
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    If you're going to let wort sit overnight, you'll want to fiinish the sparge so that the grain isn't part of the equation and you're letting finished wort sit, not a mash tun full. I'd bring the wort up to at least 170. In fact, go ahead and bring it to a boil or close to before you turn it off. Nothing to lose but a little extra time. If your hops are going to sit overnight, you'll need to do some experimenting to get the amount right. You'll be combining First Wort with No-Chill and really maximizing IBU uptake.
     
  18. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    4,066
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    I've left mash overnight without issue but it is not my preferred method. The last time I did it was for souring and it was about 18 hours.
     
    Trialben likes this.
  19. Dogwood

    Dogwood Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2020
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Door builder/semi retired
    Location:
    Holcombe WI
    Do you remove the hops at boil then? Just did a batch, hops at 170 and left them in for the boil!
     
  20. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2017
    Messages:
    4,066
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Manager
    Location:
    Edmonton
    Nope they stay in the whole boil.
     
    Trialben and BarbarianBrewer like this.

Share This Page

arrow_white