first lager schedule

Discussion in 'Beginners Brewing Forum' started by weldedsord, Oct 25, 2020.

  1. weldedsord

    weldedsord Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    18
    #1 weldedsord, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
    Hey dudes I finally got fermentation control and i'm planning to make my first lager(s)
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1061328/marzen-v1
    and since the freezer I use fits two carboys i'm also doing a cheeky extract brew on the side
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1061728/basic-lager-v1
    I finalized the recipes but i'm not sure about the schedule. my coworker and I made one and it is

    brew day
    brew day pitch yeast and ferment both at 55f for ten days
    ten days later
    do a diacetyl rest at 65f for four days+ depending on flavor
    14+ days later
    start lagering
    -8f a day till at 34f then wait a month to lager
    when lagering is done
    bottle with cbc-1 yeast added at room temp till carbonated
    any thoughts?
     
  2. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Nothing wrong with any of that but the best way to determine diacetyl rest time is by gravity. Ideally you'd get to within 3-4 points of your final gravity and then raise the temp. Diacetyl consumption requires actively metabolizing yeast cells. If you reached final gravity at the lower temp (though 55 is not drastically low for these yeasts) you would be stuck with whatever diacetyl was produced during fermentation.
    Side note: The Pale2-row malt you have in your Marzen recipe seems completely superfluous.
     
    hundel and weldedsord like this.
  3. Donoroto

    Donoroto Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2020
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Atlanta
    After some unpleasantness with my first Lager, just check those yeast calculations (at 0.35, more appropriate for an ale) as it looks extremely low.

    5 gallons of 1.055 lager wort at 55F deserves a pitching rate of 1.5 (/P/liter), or a bit above 400 Billion yeasties. Underpitching promotes esters due to yeast stress.

    The rest looks pretty good
     
    J A and weldedsord like this.
  4. weldedsord

    weldedsord Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The 2 row is only there for dp. the calculator said I needed it
     
    J A likes this.
  5. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Yeah, good call. I hadn't paid much attention to the pitch rate he's using but it's low. I've used 2 packets of S-23 for 1.050 lagers fermented at 60 and they've been fine but the S-189 probably needs a higher pitch, especially when fermenting in the low to mid-50s.
     
  6. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    You could certainly leave it but 8 ounces isn't likely to make or break your recipe. If you really need more DP, Pilsner would be the way to go. Most Marzens use Pilsner rather than Vienna or a combination of the three.
     
  7. weldedsord

    weldedsord Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2019
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    18
    should I make it 3 packs of s-189 then?
     
    J A likes this.
  8. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,439
    Likes Received:
    9,505
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Dude I pitched one pack of 34/70 into a 1.058 OG lager just a few weeks ago :eek: my beer is ruined ah ah just perfectly delicious i tell ya:p.

    I've never used two packs of any yeast in my beer period:). (I do make starters though).
    But I dont hang around low for long maybe a day or two then I give that yeast a hurry up all the way to the finish line. Meaning I bump the temp for the last few days and usually round out at around 20c;).

    Yesterday I pitched 1.058 lite and fizzy onto whole yeast cake set temp at 22c:eek: WTF! Yup:rolleyes: we will see eh? I did put like 25psi of pressure on top though...
     
    Hawkbox and Megary like this.
  9. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    I have some S-189 that I haven't used yet. I plan to pitch it heavier than I usually do just to ensure good behavior since I don't know it's track record. I'd say three will likely do but on a Marzen I might go 4 just because I just can't abide an under-attenuated dark, malty beer.

    The way I'd normally play this is to do 5 gallons of a simple 1.045 rice lager with a couple of packets at 58-60 degrees and build up a big fresh pitch for a 15 gallon batch that I could ferment at 52 degrees and still be confident of the cell count.
     
  10. Donoroto

    Donoroto Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2020
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Atlanta
    The Fermentis site says there are 6 B cells per gram, so an 11.5 gram package has about 70B cells.
    The site also says to pitch (for 53-59 F fermentation) at 80-120 g/hl (0.8 to 1.2 g/liter), and with 21 liters that comes to 17 to 25 grams, or 2 packages. Cooler fermentations (less than 53 F) should pitch 42 to 64 grams (!)

    https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/saflager-s-189/

    Ugh. That contradicts the previous calculation somewhat, which calls for more yeast than this calculation.

    Overpitching a lager has no ill effects, while (very) underpitching does, if it were me I'd consider 3 packages or maybe 2 with a 1 liter starter. If you've never done a starter before, it is quite easy and painless, takes a day and doubles your yeast for a few pennies.
     
  11. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Those figures are minimums. Some counts indicate that there can be as many as 20B. It's typical to count on 10B cells and I routinely use 14B as a starting point, based on specific yeast that I have experience with. Lager yeasts are usually lower but the 10B is probably a reasonable estimate.
    @weldedsord , if you're concerned about cell count and don't want to spend a fortune on extra packets, pitch the 3 or maybe 4 packets at 64 degrees and put into your controlled chamber set for 58 degrees. Next morning set it at 55 and let it run. That will help the lag phase and will take the stress of the cells. Definitely re-hydrate the yeast in water according to directions. It makes a huge difference with lager yeasts.
    Disclaimer: I've done this with the other Fermentis lager yeasts but not S-189. You'll have to hedge your bets a little but I think you can get good results. ;)
     
    hundel likes this.
  12. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,439
    Likes Received:
    9,505
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Sunfire96 likes this.
  13. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Hey Ben, what was your fermentation temp? I've got a couple of packet that I want to use up. :)
     
  14. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,439
    Likes Received:
    9,505
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Heres what ive got in my brew session Screenshot_20201027-082539_Samsung Internet.jpg
     
  15. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    So it looks like a 1.5 liter "head start" with the yeast while the batch was cooling to pitch temp.One packet or two? Pitched at 60 and held there for 8 days until D-rest at 68?
    It's finally getting cooler here so I can start thinking about brewing a lager. :)
     
    Trialben likes this.
  16. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    9,439
    Likes Received:
    9,505
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Pest control tech
    Location:
    Palmwoods QLD
    Na I usually take some wort on brew day for next batch starter that's what that is.
    I would of used one packet that's why I fermented at 16c not cooler.
    I would of started free rising once i saw fermentation slowing i like to try and catch the tail end of fermentation as I head to Diacetyl rest.

    This tasting note Screenshot_20201027-082308_Samsung Internet.jpg
     
  17. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    2,692
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Austin, Texas
    Good to know! Thanks for the clarification. ;)
     
    Trialben likes this.
  18. hundel

    hundel Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Boston
    The cell counts in the literature on dry yeast packs are lower than what you would likely count under the microscope. Think of them as a promise. If you pitch 2 packs of S-189 at that OG you will get great lager almost every time, but if you are conservative or have one chance at a special occasion brew you should build out a starter or buy additional yeast.
     
    weldedsord likes this.
  19. hundel

    hundel Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    50
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Boston
     
    weldedsord likes this.

Share This Page

arrow_white