Dried Montmorency Cherries anyone?

[Box of Rocks]

Final stages of planning out Uncle Gene's Chocolate Cherry Smoked Porter:

<iframe width="100%" height="500px" src="https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1391849" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Four questions for discussion: How much smoked cherry wood malt? How much lactose? How much (if any) cocoa nibs? and... How should I use the cherries?

Thinking lower amounts on the smoked malt and lactose would be good rather than overpowering things. Could skip the cocoa nibs and take chocolate out of the name. And leaning toward putting the cherries onto the bottom of the fermenter and let it all plug away for a month or two. Cherries could go in the mash instead, though.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Nice.

Cocoa Nibs are a funny one anybow on how much they contribute but I feel that chocolate thing would go great with the cherries.

Can't help ya two much on amounts 90g is what I've used on another stout I was just talking about in another thread.

I'd use the cherries just like your intending in the fermenter along with the nibs and rack your wort ontop and let her buck baby!


Oh you might get a little extra bacteria In with the cherries so keep this in Mind you can use some Metabisulphate to kill any bacteria before hand.

Eg one cambden tablet crushed and added to the cherry slurry at the bottom of fermenter this will sanitize it and preserve it ready for your wort.

Edit (don't worry about the meta killing your yeast they'll be fine wine people use Metabisulphate in their must and it still ferments).

Edit # 2 this is the last one lol.
Take into consideration some people are allergic to sulphites ok now were good

 

[The Brew Mentor]

The nibs actually don't come through much so if you're going to use them, I would toast them a bit and add them to the fermenter about a week in.
I also like the cherries added later and adding the sulphite as @Trialben suggested above is a good idea.
Good luck!

 

[Megary]

I've used this Cherrywood Smoked malt a few times and can say with confidence that you won't notice it at all in this beer at less than 15%. Maybe if it was a lighter style, sure. But in a Stout with cherries and chocolate, the smoked malt would just be filler unless you get a bit aggressive. I would be comfortable doubling what your recipe shows, and even at that it would still be subtle. Triple it for a noticeable smoky contribution. YMMV.

Good luck and keep us posted. Especially on the cherries. I plan on making a Cherry Stout this winter and thought about adding frozen cherries to the fermenter just as primary fermentation starts winding down. Not sure though.

 

[Box of Rocks]

Appreciate the perspectives.

I have another pound of the smoked malt, so will just swap out for 2 row on that. Leaning towards putting the nibs and cherries into just enough Vodka to cover it all, and adding them three days into fermentation, so there is some alcohol in the wort and in the stuff being added to keep things from going haywire.

 

[Donoroto]

2 pounds of smoked will be noticed but subtle. I made a lager with about 50% smoked barley and it is not overpowering but pleasant, you can drink more than one.

Your thoughts on the cherries and cocoa agree with mine.

 

[Box of Rocks]

Brewed this today. A couple points more efficient than expected - first time crushing grains myself so I take that as a win. Wort is tasty, looking forward to trying a sample in a few weeks. Now I need to get 4 oz more nibs to combine with the cherries. Found a bottle of Kirschwasser left over from an Oktoberfest party last year - perfect for soaking and then adding during active fermentation.

A long day, but should be worth it.

 

[Bigbre04]

Final stages of planning out Uncle Gene's Chocolate Cherry Smoked Porter:

<iframe width="100%" height="500px" src="https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1391849" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Four questions for discussion: How much smoked cherry wood malt? How much lactose? How much (if any) cocoa nibs? and... How should I use the cherries?

Thinking lower amounts on the smoked malt and lactose would be good rather than overpowering things. Could skip the cocoa nibs and take chocolate out of the name. And leaning toward putting the cherries onto the bottom of the fermenter and let it all plug away for a month or two. Cherries could go in the mash instead, though.

I always tend towards a hint of smoke rather then a straight rauche beer experience personally.

coco nibs are a tough one. I have used them several times in different beers. I think that we had the most success with adding them to brite beer sort of like a dryhop. I generally try to avoid fermenting beers with things other then just malt and hops, the results can be strange. Chocolate malt will also be your friend here as will a de-bittered black malt.

As was said above, you might want to be careful with the other bacteria on the cherries. I would personally puree and pasturize the cherries(same way that you would can in a ball jar). I dont think that adding the cherries to the mash will accomplish much. I have had alot more luck adding fruit post fermentation in order to get more fresh fruit flavor, but i also force carb and keg instead of bottling.

Lactose wise i would also tend towards less is more. you can really end up with overly sweet beers. I will edit in some percentages that i have used in the past.

 

[Box of Rocks]

I always tend towards a hint of smoke rather then a straight rauche beer experience personally.

coco nibs are a tough one. I have used them several times in different beers. I think that we had the most success with adding them to brite beer sort of like a dryhop. I generally try to avoid fermenting beers with things other then just malt and hops, the results can be strange. Chocolate malt will also be your friend here as will a de-bittered black malt.

As was said above, you might want to be careful with the other bacteria on the cherries. I would personally puree and pasturize the cherries(same way that you would can in a ball jar). I dont think that adding the cherries to the mash will accomplish much. I have had alot more luck adding fruit post fermentation in order to get more fresh fruit flavor, but i also force carb and keg instead of bottling.

Lactose wise i would also tend towards less is more. you can really end up with overly sweet beers. I will edit in some percentages that i have used in the past.

Thanks Bigbre04, appreciate the perspectives. Going with a tincture, and might add the "cherry dry hop" tonight. Hoping 80% kirschwasser rum has pulled out the sugars and killed any bacteria. Planning to mash them with a (sterilized) potato masher to get the juice out prior to pitching. Still torn on whether to include the mashed cherry residue or just the liquid.

Would be great to see your percentages for lactose. I am skipping it for this brew, but have a chocolate malt sweet stout that uses lactose. I am curious about your experience with milk sugar.

 

[Bigbre04]

Thanks Bigbre04, appreciate the perspectives. Going with a tincture, and might add the "cherry dry hop" tonight. Hoping 80% kirschwasser rum has pulled out the sugars and killed any bacteria. Planning to mash them with a (sterilized) potato masher to get the juice out prior to pitching. Still torn on whether to include the mashed cherry residue or just the liquid.

Would be great to see your percentages for lactose. I am skipping it for this brew, but have a chocolate malt sweet stout that uses lactose. I am curious about your experience with milk sugar.

I would use a food processor or a blender to really chewup that fruit. That being said, i would also include the pulp in there as it adds more flavor and usually wont cause an issue with chunkies in the final product. plus more fruit flavor.

i got slammed at work yesturday so i didnt get to it. today is looking similar, alot todo. ill try to get that sent over to ya.

 

[Bigbre04]

Thanks Bigbre04, appreciate the perspectives. Going with a tincture, and might add the "cherry dry hop" tonight. Hoping 80% kirschwasser rum has pulled out the sugars and killed any bacteria. Planning to mash them with a (sterilized) potato masher to get the juice out prior to pitching. Still torn on whether to include the mashed cherry residue or just the liquid.

Would be great to see your percentages for lactose. I am skipping it for this brew, but have a chocolate malt sweet stout that uses lactose. I am curious about your experience with milk sugar.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1383335/sour-base-w-lactose-

So I use lactose in my sours. I use somewhere between 3 and 6#s(usually 4#s). this is about 2%-4% of the total weight of the recipe. 3#s is a very light additional sweetness where 6#s is pretty noticeably sweet. These are fruited Sour beers.

The lactose causes the final gravity to be anywhere from 5-6 Plato. This is very much sweet(to me), but with the ph being down around 3.2 and the bunches of fruit it makes a very palatable beer. They end up being between 4.5-5.5%abv.

 

[Box of Rocks]

Wow, that's a big batch! Thanks for the tips, much appreciated.
I ended up just adding the liquid, wanting to avoid an infection and not wanting to take up too much room in the fermenter. Tried smashing the fruit with a potato ricer, but it was futile.
Next time I will use a smaller volume, maybe half a pound (was using 2 pounds dried cherries for a 4.5 gallon batch), and cut them up for more surface area. Dried cherries are tough, so need more surface area and more time - perhaps into the fermenter next time (which was the original plan).

 

[GFHomebrew]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1383335/sour-base-w-lactose-

So I use lactose in my sours. I use somewhere between 3 and 6#s(usually 4#s). this is about 2%-4% of the total weight of the recipe. 3#s is a very light additional sweetness where 6#s is pretty noticeably sweet. These are fruited Sour beers.

The lactose causes the final gravity to be anywhere from 5-6 Plato. This is very much sweet(to me), but with the ph being down around 3.2 and the bunches of fruit it makes a very palatable beer. They end up being between 4.5-5.5%abv.

You adding the dextrose to dry it out or just contribute more ABV it just seems counter intuitive to add lactose and dextrose to the beer.

Take with grain of salt never brewed an intentional sour...

 

[Donoroto]

Wow, that's a big batch! Thanks for the tips, much appreciated.
I ended up just adding the liquid, wanting to avoid an infection and not wanting to take up too much room in the fermenter. Tried smashing the fruit with a potato ricer, but it was futile.
Next time I will use a smaller volume, maybe half a pound (was using 2 pounds dried cherries for a 4.5 gallon batch), and cut them up for more surface area. Dried cherries are tough, so need more surface area and more time - perhaps into the fermenter next time (which was the original plan).

Use a blender with a little liquid.

 

[Bigbre04]

You adding the dextrose to dry it out or just contribute more ABV it just seems counter intuitive to add lactose and dextrose to the beer.

Take with grain of salt never brewed an intentional sour...

The dextrose was based on reading the "Best Practices" for Philly Sour. They we talking about how most of the souring is done with Glucose in the first 48 hours. My brewhouse struggles with lower temp mashes, so i was trying to add the Dextrose to kick start the pH drop. Basically i was trying to kickstart the Souring.

Honestly, I wont buy philly sour again. It just doesnt get as sour as i prefer and it is very slow fermentation wise. I much prefer the Sour Pitch and Voss combo.

Also that recipe looks a little odd as i adjusted it because i ran out of golden promise.

 

[Bigbre04]

Wow, that's a big batch! Thanks for the tips, much appreciated.
I ended up just adding the liquid, wanting to avoid an infection and not wanting to take up too much room in the fermenter. Tried smashing the fruit with a potato ricer, but it was futile.
Next time I will use a smaller volume, maybe half a pound (was using 2 pounds dried cherries for a 4.5 gallon batch), and cut them up for more surface area. Dried cherries are tough, so need more surface area and more time - perhaps into the fermenter next time (which was the original plan).

Lol naw my old system was a 4 vessel fully automated Newlands 30bbl(preboil was about 1100gals as i recall) brewhouse at a regional brewery. I am making 2 bbls as a brewpub on Tybee Island outside of Savannah, Ga.

I would leave the volume as more is always better imo with fruit, ESPECIALLY if you are fermenting it out. I would generally use a blender with a little vodka and puree it down. The skin will help alot with flavor. Just be careful with cherry as it can taste medicinal.

We buy aseptic fruit purees(42# bags) on my scale. The bigger guys buy it by the 55gal drum and often use flavorings instead of puree.

 

[GFHomebrew]

The dextrose was based on reading the "Best Practices" for Philly Sour. They we talking about how most of the souring is done with Glucose in the first 48 hours. My brewhouse struggles with lower temp mashes, so i was trying to add the Dextrose to kick start the pH drop. Basically i was trying to kickstart the Souring.

Honestly, I wont buy philly sour again. It just doesnt get as sour as i prefer and it is very slow fermentation wise. I much prefer the Sour Pitch and Voss combo.

Also that recipe looks a little odd as i adjusted it because i ran out of golden promise.

Hey maybe a listen to this brulab podcast may help to hone your kettle souring skills.
These guys kettle sour in a couple of HOURS using the techniques they talk about in this episode.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4s3udxT9y4rqWy1JpetvTc?si=5Vsm9mYuRXyN7IPc8QmPPQ

 

[Bigbre04]

Hey maybe a listen to this brulab podcast may help to hone your kettle souring skills.
These guys kettle sour in a couple of HOURS using the techniques they talk about in this episode.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4s3udxT9y4rqWy1JpetvTc?si=5Vsm9mYuRXyN7IPc8QmPPQ

I will check it out!

We used to do actual kettle sours at my previous place of employment and i never loved the flavor. Personally im more of a sour person vs the funk that our kettle sours produced.

The major advantage that i see from the Sour pitch is that it sours nicely but dies very very easily. cant take more then 7 IBU and is generally very fragile. that makes it safe to just toss in the fermenter for me. plus its pretty cheap compared to a normal yeast pitch. i think itw as $200 for a 250gram bag and i only need about 35g per batch so thats a solid price compared to $100 per pitch for philly sour.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I will check it out!

We used to do actual kettle sours at my previous place of employment and i never loved the flavor. Personally im more of a sour person vs the funk that our kettle sours produced.

The major advantage that i see from the Sour pitch is that it sours nicely but dies very very easily. cant take more then 7 IBU and is generally very fragile. that makes it safe to just toss in the fermenter for me. plus its pretty cheap compared to a normal yeast pitch. i think itw as $200 for a 250gram bag and i only need about 35g per batch so thats a solid price compared to $100 per pitch for philly sour.

Yeah they've had specialised LAB culture that they have been serially repitching for 9 YEARS awesome stuff.

That's the kinda stuff that makes me horney when it comes to brewing these days !

If i remember some key points I took from it is they pre acidified wort prior to adding lactic acid bacteria. They went to crazy lengths to de oxygenate their brewing water including the air space above the wort.
And they thoroughly cleaned their brew kettle mash tun heat exchanger to make sure absolutely no hops were left anywhere to inhibit the lactic acid bacteria.

 

[Bigbre04]

Yeah they've had specialised LAB culture that they have been serially repitching for 9 YEARS awesome stuff.

That's the kinda stuff that makes me horney when it comes to brewing these days !

If i remember some key points I took from it is they pre acidified wort prior to adding lactic acid bacteria. They went to crazy lengths to de oxygenate their brewing water including the air space above the wort.
And they thoroughly cleaned their brew kettle mash tun heat exchanger to make sure absolutely no hops were left anywhere to inhibit the lactic acid bacteria.

That is wild lol, get it???

But ya i have not great memories of coming in to a kettle sour that had been 24-48 hrs in our mash mixer and it having a big fuzzy white layer on top. very much not my thing. we could technically have purged the whole vessel with CO2 but it wouldnt have made much of a difference for the effort.