Another Brew Session Print-out "Anomaly"

Discussion in 'Brew Sessions' started by AHarper, Apr 30, 2019.

  1. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Ok. I have just done a brew session of an Extract brew with a Steeping Grain addition.
    I did what I thought was correct and set up the recipe with a Mash setting as Steeping - how else do you do it? - and triggered the Brew session.

    upload_2019-4-30_19-14-28.png

    This led to the following Brew Steps. Printed out in the order displayed below. Forgive the overlap in the graphics.
    upload_2019-4-30_19-16-52.png
    upload_2019-4-30_19-17-19.png
    upload_2019-4-30_19-19-1.png
    upload_2019-4-30_19-19-39.png

    As you can see the steps are in the order:
    SETUP - STEEP - MASH - BOIL - FINISH.

    Go to [Print Steps] from the menu.
    This is the resultant print-out screen.
    upload_2019-4-30_19-23-32.png
    upload_2019-4-30_19-25-31.png

    Note the NEW print out order:

    SETUP - MASH - STEEP - BOIL - FINISH.

    I think something is going wrong here....
     

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  2. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Additionally why does it say MASH when the water is for Steeping - not a mash in the conventional sense - so why not have the entries in the Steeping section? I guess that is probably down to me editing the Steps in the first place? Another why I wanted to print out the steps in my previous Posting.
     
  3. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I guess it’s because you don’t add salts to steeping grains, but only in a mash? That’s my best guess as to these weird results.

    When you add “other”, I think the choice there must be ‘mash’ instead of boil.
     
  4. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Hi Lorena,

    Well that still doesn't explain the swapping of the order between screen and print out.

    As for the salts - I'll investigate but they are there to alter water balance so where should it go?
    I do not remember selecting them for mash but maybe because I followed the"rules" about a small amount of water for the steeping part - not too much so you don't get extra tannin added - I assumed the Mash section for the initial water load. I'll take another look.

    My main query was the difference in print out order - not sure how that is happening but it is weird. I haven't seen that sort of twist in other print outs.
     
  5. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I think it’s because you’ve got salts in the “mash” and grains in the “steep”,
    (Look at the additives and when you selected them to be added), and usually it’s one or the other.

    Since you’re not using the salts to help with the mash pH, they can go in anytime in the water or the boil.
     
  6. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    #6 AHarper, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
    OK. I updated the recipe to remove any Mash water then I went to the Water report.

    I removed Mash Water volume leaving Total Water Volume alone - as 23Lt.
    I then swapped the salts from the usual Mash area (Salt Additions section) and moved THE SAME VALUES to the Sparge / Kettle Salt Additions: section. Now the Overall Water Report has changed and the
    Ca+2 and SO4-2 levels are now showing LOW. Since I have updated the water report I can't show you the original but I always aim for ALL GREEN STARS when adding salt amounts so something has definitely changed.

    upload_2019-5-3_13-46-52.png

    Why if the same volume of water is being used and the same amounts of salts are being used does the calculation change? Are there some assumptions about the effects of the grain in a Mash (the old situation) altering the overall water chemistry? I wouldn't have thought this was the case as there should be no change if I am trying to modify the Source Water to achieve the Target water chemistry. There is something odd here - or I don't understand this fully yet?
    The reason for importing the Grist amounts is for calculating pH but since I did not alter that section - the same 1kg of Amber is stipulated in the Water Calcs why would it change?


    This still doesn't explain the SWAP of Print Order problem!!!!!


    #################################

    Additionally when I updated the Water Report then updated the recipe - THE SYSTEM ADDED ANOTHER SET OF SALTS!!!!! This time as Sparge entries. I modified the original salt recipe entries as OTHER.

    YIPPEE! What fun...

    ################################
     
  7. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I don’t understand what’s happening.

    I’ll have to spend some time digging into the recipe part of it (seeing where the salts are added, why it would say “mash” instead of just ‘steep’, the volumes, etc). The volume must have changed in order to show the resulting water profile, or something like that. I’ll look at this a bit more closely.

    In the screenshot at the beginning, the “other” box is cut off so I can’t see the original settings for it.
     
  8. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Hi Lorena,

    I had another look at the procedure of a Steeping Extract recipe and re-did the recipe and took some screen shots as I went so you can see what happened.
    I started a new recipe (using my default settings) and inserted the amounts of Dry Malt Extract and Steeping grains. I did not touch the Mash settings. I went to the Other Ingredients section to put in the Irish Moss and Salt amounts (knowing what I would eventually need from experience)
    The Salts default to MASH in the drop-down so I changed them to BOIL as you suggested and it makes sense.

    upload_2019-5-5_22-52-33.png

    I scrolled down to the Water Chemistry section to update the values to the water I would normally use as Source and Target.
    upload_2019-5-5_23-5-36.png I then SAVED THE RECIPE and selected LINK to set up a water chemistry calculation.
    upload_2019-5-5_23-7-42.png

    Note that the system has somehow decided to set up MASH WATER - inserting a value of 3 Lt. I DID NOT DO THIS.
    Scrolling down you can see that the system has also inserted the Salts I input into the recipe as salts for a MASH despite me changing the salts to be added as BOIL as I was doing a Steeping Grain extract recipe.

    (I think the defaulted MASH setting has been remembered by the system despite me changing the reference to BOIL - before I saved the recipe earlier - if you see what I mean?)

    upload_2019-5-5_23-11-46.png

    Continuing on, I checked the Salt Deltas before I saved (updated) the Water Calculation.
    upload_2019-5-5_23-20-10.png upload_2019-5-5_23-21-17.png

    On return to the recipe and selecting UPDATE RECIPE (as you should do) the system has now inserted the Salts as ADDITIONAL Mash entries!! - Not what I was expecting here but I suspect it is because the system has assumed a MASH.
    upload_2019-5-5_23-25-51.png

    Yet there are no water amounts set in the recipe Mash section...
    upload_2019-5-5_23-27-18.png

    The next stage in the process is to start a Brew Session and check the steps the system thinks I want to follow...

    The system now has selected the correct details for an EXTRACT brew with Steeping Grains - selecting [PRINT] produces a similarly ordered print out. (This bit seems to function correctly).

    I hope this helps Lorena though I don't know where the problem lies but I suspect it is the initial system assumption that a Mash is required and not being corrected for after the settings have been adjusted PRIOR TO SAVING THE RECIPE!!!!!

    Over to you and your team of hard pressed coders.

    upload_2019-5-5_23-35-27.png
     

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  9. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Any thoughts Lorena?
     
  10. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    shes on vacation, I'll let you know when shes back
     
  11. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Hi there. Thanks No problem. She deserves a long holiday.
     
  12. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    It’s been a long one- sorry about that. I should be back on Saturday and back to my normal schedule.

    I’m on a dream 3-week long trip in Tuscany. I’m checking in when I can, but not “working” much at all!

    I looked at the screenshots, and I’ll dig in when I get back. I know it’s bothersome for you, and I’m not sure what the fix can be as few extract/steeping grain brewers would use the advanced water chemistry calculator and we’d have to ensure it wouldn’t break it for those who do use it routinely. I’ll spend some time on that next week and see if I can come up with a good solution.
     
  13. AHarper

    AHarper Active Member

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    Lorena, You are on holiday --- you stop reading these posts and enjoy yourself! That is an order....
     
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