What's Up with the Boil Size in Recipe Builder

[DaveCS]

This has been causing me pain - (refer to my question regarding incorrect gravities) - I have been comparing the recipes I’ve created lately with another application and, based on my brew days, it seems Brewer’s Friend’s changes of late have done nothing to improve my brewing experience - numbers seem to be askew (even if slightly) - and I would concur with Nosybear’s post here - I’m unclear what this “new feature” is adding.

Before this “feature” was added my brews and brew days were always bang on - now, I’m not so sure about creating recipes here and have been considering leaving for another application and not renewing.

 

[DaveCS]

Now when I open an old recipe, one that's established and definitely correct, the editor gives me a different OG. So, great! Thanks for that. Once again, all the information that I've stored and all the recipes that I've archived are at risk if I open them in the current "improved" version of the editor. I give up!

Bingo - that’s my issue as well - scaling up old recipes now completely toasts that recipe - I do understand what Yooper is saying in the post directly above my first reply in this thread and I really hope that these “errors” (note the quotes) can be corrected.

The biggest problem for me is not “trusting” the software/site anymore - it’s not so much that improvements aren’t welcome or needed but ones that seem to make an end user “lose trust” in the system are not necessarily good.

 

[J A]

I just assume that every brew day will be starting over pretty much at square one until I can assimilate relevant changes and/or the bugs get worked out of whatever interface it has with other aspects of the Brew log functionality.

 

[Yooper]

Yesterday, we made it so that all old recipes would NOT be affected to avoid changing tried and true recipes. The changes should happen only in new recipes, where the calculation will be accurate.

 

[J A]

^^^^That will be awesome! It'll allow for making comparisons to old data and data derived with the "new" calculator and make changes to reflect more accurate calculations. And in the meantime it'll be easier to work with established recipes. Thanks!

 

[Drewfus1]

These changes definitely tossed a wrench into my brew day on Saturday. I made a minor mash temperature tweak to a robust porter recipe as I was mashing and saved it without noticing that BF had wildly skewed my numbers when I opened it for editing... I didn't notice until I looked at the recipe again as I was heating to boil. Then I was gnashing my teeth trying to recalibrate while many other tasks called for my attention. Initially I thought it was a glitch with the program, but since I was in the middle of a batch, didn't have much time to look into things. I nailed my OG (1.064) on the porter based on the originally calculated number (the updated builder claimed it would be 1.052) but I have no idea where the bitterness will land (probably somewhere between 15 and 25) because I'd made changes to hop additions the day of before figuring out exactly what was going on with BF.

My process very much revolved around the numbers BF had given me in the past. If this new configuration is more accurate, then some of my setup numbers/volumes/efficiency were certainly off. When I initially input many of the values for my profile and setup, I'd barely used my recirculation system and newer kettles. This morning I re-calibrated a few recipes based on data points that I do have from recent batches (OGs, observed boil off rate, kettle losses, etc) and realize that for all my numbers to jive I must be getting 85% efficiency rather than the 70% that I had calculated many many batches ago. That's the only way I get numbers to line up.

Initially I was angry that a change had been made and it had messed with a brew day. I also wasn't happy about having to rework a bunch of recipes. But in retrospect, numbers that I had initially programmed in to BF were inaccurate and my system has changed considerably since I set everything up. It was past time for me to calibrate everything again. I guess I just got complacent because I was hitting my gravity targets and the beer was tasting great. An "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" complacency. I'm going to be very observant on my next couple brew days and take very detailed notes on everything so I can triple check that all the profile/general/equipment/efficiency numbers I now have plugged in are accurate.

My only request is: the next time you make an update that can/will have a wide-ranging effect on numbers and calibration, please let us know in advance. Thank you!

 

[Yooper]

I apologize for that- the intention was NOT to change all recipes and skew the data we already had in the system that worked. Unfortunately, that happened it it took two days to change it back properly. That was definitely not expected.

 

[oliver]

i noticed the post boil calc button is still calculating too far based on my equipment profile, and then realized that the Recipe Builder was choosing an alternate equipment profile and wasn't auto selecting my default profile... for those having problems, check to see that the recipe builder is choosing your correct profile? everything seems to be working on my end now that i fixed that quick issue.

 

[J A]

i noticed the post boil calc button is still calculating too far based on my equipment profile, and then realized that the Recipe Builder was choosing an alternate equipment profile and wasn't auto selecting my default profile... for those having problems, check to see that the recipe builder is choosing your correct profile? everything seems to be working on my end now that i fixed that quick issue.

Yeah...I noticed that as well. The calculator seems to be choosing the most recently added equipment profile rather than the one set as default. Beware.

 

[Nosybear]

i noticed the post boil calc button is still calculating too far based on my equipment profile, and then realized that the Recipe Builder was choosing an alternate equipment profile and wasn't auto selecting my default profile... for those having problems, check to see that the recipe builder is choosing your correct profile? everything seems to be working on my end now that i fixed that quick issue.

How do we change it?

 

[oliver]

How do we change it?

make sure your equipment profile is square in your profile settings, then in the editor, choose the big brown MORE button next to color and style, and Equipment profile is available from a drop down list.

 

[Nosybear]

Dang it, I knew that! Sux getting old...

 

[GFHomebrew]

This is probably to do with incorrect boil size. The grain absorbtion losses aren't being calculated in the "quick water requirments" this is giving me the wrong water requirements. I'm trying to brew a double batch for first time this weekend but I can't trust the calculated losses in the quick water requirements.

See that grain absorbtion is my profile setting not my overall grain/water losses this is for 7kg batch so should be 5.6lt.

 

[snails07]

I was initially pretty pissed at the change, but Yooper's explanation makes sense. And combined with Drewfus1's comments, I think it will be good moving forward.

All my previous recipes and equipment profiles are now cactus but it gives me a good chance to calibrate everything again.

The functionality of the 'Calc' button needs to be looked at though. If I adjust boil time by say half an hour but forget to hit calc, everything will be off. It should be auto calculated.

Also, if I have set my equipment profile and then select say 30 litre mash with 4kg pilsner malt (BIAB), it would be awesome for everything to just calculate based off of that.
It would calculate grain absorption, pre-boil vol and everything else from there. Or am I missing something? It seems we set all these parameters but then still have to manually enter volumes etc.

 

[DaveCS]

I did note the “Equipment Profile” issue as well but have adjusted and tried to make “checking it” one of my standard steps when I create a recipe.

I will review the changes and create a new recipe (based on an old, verifiable, one and see how the changes - or rolled back changes fare)

Thanks to the admins and staff for paying attention to this.

 

[AHarper]

Obviously if you know me at all, I fall heavily on the engineer (show me all the numbers) side.

Like @Yooper said, this update was needed to accurately model essential recipe stats, gravities, ibus etc and corrected previously unknown errors.

I think it could reduce the likelihood of incorrect inputs by making that cell a calculated value only, and removing the "calc" button.

As far as changelogs on beta version and live version, I think two quick starting points could be

1) Display a version number at the top somewhere visible, or the last updated date stamp with a link to the relevant entry in the changelog.

2) Any changes made to the beta, post in the forum, subject: "date/version and short title of change"

Then beta members can comment / provide feedback etc. Before pushing the changes to the live site.

WRT Number 1 above...
I asked for that months ago...

ALSO. Although the new calculations correct for Boil off etc and therefore OG values... I think there is an unexpected affect on IBU calculations... Please see my post of yesterday... or whenever under IBU calculations

 

[Craigerrr]

I have honestly just come to fully understand the batch size, and pre and post boil size numbers and the "calc" function, what it calculates, and how to make it work for me.
Maybe I am the only one who was still struggling with this, but maybe this helps someone else.
Int he example below I have made my batch size "fermenter" 11.4usg. I lose 1usg to trub, and an approximate additional 0.4usg to dry hop additions. Leaving another 0.50usg in the kettle (albeit mostly hop debris), I need 11.9 post boil. The unintuitive part of this is that to now know my required preboil volume in order for the calc button to calculate my known required post boil volume. This is fine as I now understand how it works, just sharing my "discovery".
I have continued to have volume and gravity issues, and I am petty sure that not understanding these numbers has been the source of my issue.

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

I have honestly just come to fully understand the batch size, and pre and post boil size numbers and the "calc" function, what it calculates, and how to make it work for me.
Maybe I am the only one who was still struggling with this, but maybe this helps someone else.
Int he example below I have made my batch size "fermenter" 11.4usg. I lose 1usg to trub, and an approximate additional 0.4usg to dry hop additions. Leaving another 0.50usg in the kettle (albeit mostly hop debris), I need 11.9 post boil. The unintuitive part of this is that to now know my required preboil volume in order for the calc button to calculate my known required post boil volume. This is fine as I now understand how it works, just sharing my "discovery".
I have continued to have volume and gravity issues, and I am petty sure that not understanding these numbers has been the source of my issue.

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Glad it finally clicked for you. I think it's still an opportunity for improvement in a couple areas that I'll be having discussions with the developers about so we may see some changes in the future on how the information is displayed, and how the "calc" button functionally behaves.

Right now, if you click the calc button, it calculates postboil and is now enabled, forever. Make a change to preboil, and you'll see the postboil volume change accordingly. I don't think that is a good element behavior for what appears to be a single use button. In the current behavior, it should be a check box to enable and disable as desired.

 

[Craigerrr]

I agree, and also working from packaging volume back to post boil volume it would make more sense for the calc button to be on the other field. Packaging volume, known, therfore post boil volume known, calculate required preboil volume.

 

[Craigerrr]

As I noted above I have been struggling with my volumes the last while, but I hit my volume on last nights brew session. And for the first time in a long time I was not under on my gravity. I was actually over by two points. It is most likely that the 2 extra points are due to increased efficiency from doing a fly sparge.