Water treatment, NEIPA

[kaspar&piet]

Hi,

my beers have been fine so far and my next step is to start treating my water. The goal for my NEIPA is to lower sulfate and get more chloride since I was not happy with the mouthfeel and the hop bitterness was a bit harsh.

I'm trying this by diluting with 10 l of distilled water (for lowering the sulfate), 5 l in the mash, 5 l in the sparge water. Plus I'm going to add a little chloride.

I've put all the numbers in the calculator and mineral levels and ph look good to me. Am I on the right track, or missing something?

Cheers
Georg

Here are the stats:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XXXQ3H2

And the recipe:

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: NEIPA #3

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: New England IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 21 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 28.9 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.046
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.068
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (standard): 6.46%
IBU (tinseth): 39.61
SRM (morey): 5.54

FERMENTABLES:
4050 g - German - Pale Ale (66.9%)
900 g - German - Wheat Malt (14.9%)
700 g - Rolled Oats (11.6%)
400 g - German - CaraHell - (late addition) (6.6%)

HOPS:
10 g - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 16.22
15 g - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Boil for 1 min, IBU: 0.81
15 g - citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.9, Use: Boil for 1 min, IBU: 0.96
20 g - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Whirlpool for 40 min at 80 °C, IBU: 9.52
20 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Whirlpool for 40 min at 80 °C, IBU: 12.1
25 g - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
45 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
35 g - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
80 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Dry Hop for 6 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Temperature, Temp: 68 C, Time: 60 min, Amount: 15 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 2.8 L/kg

YEAST:
Wyeast - London Ale III 1318

 

[White Haus Brews]

Looks like you're on the right track to me, NEIPA does seem like a style that benefits greatly from the right water profile. Your pH for distilled water seems a little on the low side (I was under the impression it's usually closer to 6) but that doesn't seem to change much when it comes to the mash pH when changed. Good luck and hope you brew what you're looking for!

 

[kaspar&piet]

Thanks, yeah changing the ph of the destilled water does not seem to do much for the mash ph, so it should be fine.

 

[Nosybear]

Water pH is irrelevant - it's the mash pH that matters. At least for conversion. If you're not satisfied with the outcome, you can always add brewing salts at packaging to taste, they work just as well there.

 

[White Haus Brews]

I agree that mash pH is what's important but that doesn't mean water pH is irrelevant. If I use my tap water with a pH of 8 my mash pH should be different than if I use DI/RO water with a pH of 6.

 

[GFHomebrew]

My distilled water comes in at 8ph (with PH meter) should be the same across the board...?

 

[kaspar&piet]

I read that destilled water has a ph of 7-8, but once opened the reaction with carbon dioxide lets it sink to a ph of 5-6.

 

[White Haus Brews]

Interesting Trailben. I've heard same as Kasper but haven't had the pH meter to verify where I'm at. Just picked one up though so I'm looking forward to testing it out!

 

[Nosybear]

I agree that mash pH is what's important but that doesn't mean water pH is irrelevant. If I use my tap water with a pH of 8 my mash pH should be different than if I use DI/RO water with a pH of 6.

Your tap water has calcium and magnesium in it and will actually produce a lower pH in the mash than the RO water. As I said, the water's pH is not a factor in the mash pH, rather the salt content and the alkalinity.

 

[White Haus Brews]

Your tap water has calcium and magnesium in it and will actually produce a lower pH in the mash than the RO water. As I said, the water's pH is not a factor in the mash pH, rather the salt content and the alkalinity.

I'm sure this is something about water chemistry I'm not understanding (there's a lot of that), I'm just having a hard time with the thought experiment that water with a higher pH (which I assume would factor alkalinity and minerals into the pH measurement) could produce an equal or lower mash pH than water that has a low pH.

I'm sure you're right, just screwing with my mind

 

[GFHomebrew]

Interesting Trailben. I've heard same as Kasper but haven't had the pH meter to verify where I'm at. Just picked one up though so I'm looking forward to testing it out!

Yeah it should be 7ph and 99% sure it is and its my PH meter i need to get a new tip. I dont trust it.

 

[Aub]

I'm sure this is something about water chemistry I'm not understanding (there's a lot of that), I'm just having a hard time with the thought experiment that water with a higher pH (which I assume would factor alkalinity and minerals into the pH measurement) could produce an equal or lower mash pH than water that has a low pH.

I'm sure you're right, just screwing with my mind

Sorry to butt in on the conversation but it does my head in too. I would have thought that if your water was PH 8.0 and mine was PH 7.0 for example, and we both had the same grain bill, then your unadjusted mash PH would be 1.0 higher than mine.
Like you, I'm sure there's a lot that I'm not understanding about water chemistry too.

 

[oliver]

water doesn't have enough power to push pH in either direction. some one I know who works in water treatment described it to me that way. Especially RO and DI water.

 

[Nosybear]

Yeah it should be 7ph and 99% sure it is and its my PH meter i need to get a new tip. I dont trust it.

Again, that's something that isn't worth worrying about. Yes, pure water should be pH 7 but even distilled water is not pure - it's in contact with air in the head space and the most soluble component of air is carbon dioxide. I generally get pHs in the 6's for distilled water, even after calibrating my pH meter. Use reference solutions to calibrate, not distilled water. But I do use a container of distilled water to keep my pH meter electrode wet while I'm brewing - you can watch the pH change as different calibration solutions and wort gets mixed in.

If you find yourself having to calibrate the meters frequently, then you need a new electrode, not because you're measuring distilled water at other than 7 pH.

 

[Mark Farrall]

..
water with a higher pH (which I assume would factor alkalinity and minerals into the pH measurement) could produce an equal or lower mash pH than water that has a low pH.

I'm sure you're right, just screwing with my mind

Main thing is that pH isn't linear. A few drops of acid/alkali at 7 move pH a mile. Down in the 5s it takes a lot more to move the number.

 

[White Haus Brews]

This is all very interesting to me. I suppose it makes sense that water with charged ions and minerals would have a higher buffering capacity than pure water by itself. Thanks for the info Nosybear and Mark, much to learn

 

[kaspar&piet]

This batch did not turn out good at all. Contrary to my expectation, the bitterness is really harsh and makes the beer almost undrinkable. Now I am wondering why that is.

After reading all those articles about how water is the most important part in a beer and that you can improve quality by treating the water, that is what I wanted to do. Did not work out To my understanding adding chloride contributes to maltiness and a smoother mouthfeel. Am I wrong? I found this harsh bitterness in commercial brews as well (eventhough not as strong as in my beer). I am beginning to think, that the sulfate to chloride ratio I have been redading about is not ideal.

 

[oliver]

what actual numbers was your water profile? I use 100+ Calcium, 200:50 or 200:75 Chloride:Sulfate, and like 10-20 Sodium.

Also if you want it less bitter, use little to no bittering hops. For my juicebiers I typically will do 15 minute addition and then all whirlpool, or sometimes only whirlpool. Give it a healthy dry hop also. Let it settle and mellow for about 7 days if kegging, or 14-21 days in the bottle will help it also.

 

[kaspar&piet]

Here is the link to my water stats https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=XXXQ3H2

I went for 40 IBUs, which is not too much for a jucy IPA (I think). It is also more about the quality of the bitterness, not the amount. All my beers have been fine so far, even made a similar batch to this one but without water treatment and it was good. No I was going for making it better. I am just surprised that adding chloride made it harsh/metallic bitter (hard to describe) instead of maltier.

 

[Nosybear]

Many factors can affect perception of bitterness. Example: Do you know your wort pH going into the kettle? Too high and you get harsh bitterness, too low and you get harsh graininess. Sulfate and chloride in reasonable amounts aren't going to generate a lot of harshness, but chlorine in the water can. Looking at your water report, I can see why version 1 came out good - you had sulfate to chloride of about 2:1, a great ratio for hoppy beer. That's moving my suspicion to wort pH too high or chlorine/chloramine in the water. Both lead to harsh bitterness.