does amylase affect finished flavor depending on malts used?

[oliver]

Weird question, when using amylase in the fermenter to break down dextrins and add fermentability, does breaking those sugars down have any flavor change?

And do certain malts that carry limited fermentability, like dark roasted malts, give off different flavors when their structure is broken down into simple sugar, as opposed to pale malts, something I'm sure I've tasted before.

 

[Nosybear]

Weird question, when using amylase in the fermenter to break down dextrins and add fermentability, does breaking those sugars down have any flavor change?

And do certain malts that carry limited fermentability, like dark roasted malts, give off different flavors when their structure is broken down into simple sugar, as opposed to pale malts, something I'm sure I've tasted before.

It certainly will.... Dextrins give beer body and sweetness - there is very little unfermented sugar in beer! The dextrines break down when exposed to the amylase enzymes in your saliva, producing sweetness. Using amylase in the production process will eliminate the dextrines, resulting in a thinner body and loss of the perception of sweetness.
I don't think dark roasted malts break down into sugars.

 

[oliver]

Do crystal malts and roasted malts not contribute dextrins and starches? And can those starches and dextrins not be converted to simple sugar by amylase enzyme?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Do crystal malts and roasted malts not contribute dextrins and starches? And can those starches and dextrins not be converted to simple sugar by amylase enzyme?

Crystal malts add to fermentables, dextrins and some starches,they just don’t have any enzymes to complete the conversion. Some crystal malts have gone through a saccharification rest during the malting process.

Alpha amylase is only part of the enzymes needed in the mash. Most exogenous amylase enzymes available to brewers are alpha. It’s beta the produces the most fermentable wort. It’s pretty rare that a base malt actually needs any exogenous saccharification enzymes. The two enzymes together produce sugars from the starches. Alph breaks up the starches in the middle of the molecule and beta breaks up the ends. The most common sugars found in wort are maltose, sucrose and glucose. The last two are the easiest for the yeast to metabolize and are produce mainly by the beta enzyme. It’s active at 135-149F or so. Go above 150F and it starts to denature.

The bottom line is if you add alpha amylase to a mash that already has enough, it has almost no effect on the beer. If you want a more fermentable wort, target the beta enzyme.

 

[oliver]

it's not the process or the target of just dry beer I'm searching for. I'm curious what the flavor change would be, if any.

So, here's a crazy example, I brew up a batch where the malt is 50/50 split between 2-row and Carapils. I target 1.050 Original Gravity, and obviously I should expect a crazy high finishing gravity. But then I add amylase enzyme formula in the fermenter, or glucoamylase, or amyloglucosidase, it should break down those dextrins into fermentable sugar, and then the yeast should be able to consume it and eventually drop the gravity down to 1.000. So my question, does that process of breaking things down that "shouldn't" be broken down produce different flavors? Does simple sugar that had been previously been complex sugar, produce different or noticeable flavors?

Thinking out loud, I think no? Because we're already breaking down starches in the mash tun and converting them to simple sugars. And if I didn't bring in a crazy example, the typical amounts of carapils we would use use would be like 5-10% of the grist, so we aren't talking about enough to be able to taste it through the finished beer. Idk.

I certainly could be asking a question that doesn't matter, or doesn't really have any research to find a real answer. Just curiosity.

 

[Donoroto]

Crystal malts add to fermentables, dextrins and some starches,they just don’t have any enzymes to complete the conversion. Some crystal malts have gone through a saccharification rest during the malting process.

Alpha amylase is only part of the enzymes needed in the mash. Most exogenous amylase enzymes available to brewers are alpha. It’s beta the produces the most fermentable wort. It’s pretty rare that a base malt actually needs any exogenous saccharification enzymes. The two enzymes together produce sugars from the starches. Alph breaks up the starches in the middle of the molecule and beta breaks up the ends. The most common sugars found in wort are maltose, sucrose and glucose. The last two are the easiest for the yeast to metabolize and are produce mainly by the beta enzyme. It’s active at 135-149F or so. Go above 150F and it starts to denature.

The bottom line is if you add alpha amylase to a mash that already has enough, it has almost no effect on the beer. If you want a more fermentable wort, target the beta enzyme.

So would adding alpha amylase enzyme to a mash at 135-149F (where beta is active) help break down the saccharides 'better', since the 'natural' alpha isn't really active yet?

I understand that Alpha is active at higher temps, where beta is already denatured.

 

[Donoroto]

it's not the process or the target of just dry beer I'm searching for. I'm curious what the flavor change would be, if any.

So, here's a crazy example, I brew up a batch where the malt is 50/50 split between 2-row and Carapils. I target 1.050 Original Gravity, and obviously I should expect a crazy high finishing gravity. But then I add amylase enzyme formula in the fermenter, or glucoamylase, or amyloglucosidase, it should break down those dextrins into fermentable sugar, and then the yeast should be able to consume it and eventually drop the gravity down to 1.000. So my question, does that process of breaking things down that "shouldn't" be broken down produce different flavors? Does simple sugar that had been previously been complex sugar, produce different or noticeable flavors?

Thinking out loud, I think no? Because we're already breaking down starches in the mash tun and converting them to simple sugars. And if I didn't bring in a crazy example, the typical amounts of carapils we would use use would be like 5-10% of the grist, so we aren't talking about enough to be able to taste it through the finished beer. Idk.

I certainly could be asking a question that doesn't matter, or doesn't really have any research to find a real answer. Just curiosity.

I am speculating that enzymes in the fermenter are relatively inactive due to temperature. This means to me that little if any new 'pruning' of the sugar branches will occur.

But don't take my speculation for an informed opinion.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

So would adding alpha amylase enzyme to a mash at 135-149F (where beta is active) help break down the saccharides 'better', since the 'natural' alpha isn't really active yet?

I understand that Alpha is active at higher temps, where beta is already denatured.

Alpha is more active at higher temperatures, but at 145F it’s still active although a bit sluggish compared to 160F.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

it's not the process or the target of just dry beer I'm searching for. I'm curious what the flavor change would be, if any.

So, here's a crazy example, I brew up a batch where the malt is 50/50 split between 2-row and Carapils. I target 1.050 Original Gravity, and obviously I should expect a crazy high finishing gravity. But then I add amylase enzyme formula in the fermenter, or glucoamylase, or amyloglucosidase, it should break down those dextrins into fermentable sugar, and then the yeast should be able to consume it and eventually drop the gravity down to 1.000. So my question, does that process of breaking things down that "shouldn't" be broken down produce different flavors? Does simple sugar that had been previously been complex sugar, produce different or noticeable flavors?

Thinking out loud, I think no? Because we're already breaking down starches in the mash tun and converting them to simple sugars. And if I didn't bring in a crazy example, the typical amounts of carapils we would use use would be like 5-10% of the grist, so we aren't talking about enough to be able to taste it through the finished beer. Idk.

I certainly could be asking a question that doesn't matter, or doesn't really have any research to find a real answer. Just curiosity.

Glucoamylase will thin the beer out considerably and reduce malt flavor, but I doubt amylase will have the same effect. Glucoamylase is found in hops and can cause hop creep. So the bottom line is each enzyme has a different outcome.

 

[Megary]

Nice discussion. Mash temperature is something that really interests me because it should be a legitimate dial to turn in order to influence the finished beer. BUT, I question whether or not most beer drinkers can taste “numbers”. No doubt mashing at 145 will give different stats than at 157, but are we all honestly picking up on that? Maybe, in some extreme cases, but I doubt in general. My opinion.