Tannins?

Dogwood said:
Is testing water only for ph or do I have to send a sample into a lab? I did a search for what I need but way too much conflicting info? Some said I needed to test water pre mash, others said to test the wert!
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Testing the pH of the water prior to mash is not very useful, you have no idea of the buffering capacity (resistance to pH change from acid or base). That’s why a water report is beneficial, it will tell you how hard your water is so you can predict and control mash pH. Softened water is generally not used in brewing for two reasons, you have no idea of the mineral content and it contains sodium at some level. That’s why many brewers with hard water use RO water. The hardness of RO water is usually below 10-15 ppm, which is very soft. Then water salts are added to bring up calcium, sulfate and chloride levels. Hard water can be treated with acid, but I’ve never been happy with the results. The other thing to watch for is that the pH rising during the brewing process. The final ph of the wort should be 5.1-5.2 for lightly colored beers and 5.2-5.4 for darker beers. This will help with the overall mouth feel, bitterness and smoothness of the beer.
 
So the
HighVoltageMan! said:
Testing the pH of the water prior to mash is not very useful, you have no idea of the buffering capacity (resistance to pH change from acid or base). That’s why a water report is beneficial, it will tell you how hard your water is so you can predict and control mash pH. Softened water is generally not used in brewing for two reasons, you have no idea of the mineral content and it contains sodium at some level. That’s why many brewers with hard water use RO water. The hardness of RO water is usually below 10-15 ppm, which is very soft. Then water salts are added to bring up calcium, sulfate and chloride levels. Hard water can be treated with acid, but I’ve never been happy with the results. The other thing to watch for is that the pH rising during the brewing process. The final ph of the wort should be 5.1-5.2 for lightly colored beers and 5.2-5.4 for darker beers. This will help with the overall mouth feel, bitterness and smoothness of the beer.
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So then, adjust pre boil?
 
There are many confusing statements about water and testing. At this point, you are only interested in finding out what the plain water you are using for brewing has as far as mineral content is concerned. ALL those other measurements have to do with the brewing process, and you should ignore all that for now.

The basic testing needed is usually done by a lab. In the US, Ward Labs does it for about $42.

You want to know the concentrations of these minerals at least:
Calcium
Magnesium
Sodium
Iron if possible (Iron is bad for beer, so 'none' is best)
Chloride (Not chlorine, but the chlorine ion, which is called Chloride)
Sulfate (Again, not Sulphur, but the ion Sulfate, SO4)
Bicarbonate (HCO3)
It is also useful to know the pH and 'Total Alkalinity' and 'Hardness' (Both as CaCO3) but these are not essential.

All of these minerals have some effect on brewing results, but some more than others. Calcium, Chloride and Sulfate (and especially the ratio of these last two) are arguably the most important.
===========
All that being said, you can completely bypass this question by buying distilled or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water. Aldi sells distilled water here in the US for about 80 cents a gallon; most grocery stores or pharmacies sell distilled water. This kind of water has zero* minerals, and is a good starting point if you want to add minerals precisely. I recommend it highly, but then you will need to buy some Calcium Chloride and perhaps some Calcium Sulfate so you can add minerals. You should have at least 50 ppm of Calcium in your water for good fermentation. If you use extract (liquid or dry) it will have all the minerals you need.

Others will chime in on this, but I suggest reading this on brewers friend to learn more. You might find a water test profile already from your water supply posted here.
 
Dogwood said:
Is testing water only for ph or do I have to send a sample into a lab? I did a search for what I need but way too much conflicting info? Some said I needed to test water pre mash, others said to test the wert!
Click to expand...
I would test the water itself post softener. Not sure the cost of that

If it is an RO filter, just assume it has more sodium.

As for ph. You want to test ph 15 min into your mash. The ph is most critical when conversion is taking place
 
Dogwood said:
So the


So then, adjust pre boil?
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pH is not only important in the mash, it sets up the proper foundation for the beer. Mash pH targets the enzymes and allows them to work correctly and effectively, 5.4-5.6 at room temperature. Boil pH sets up for protein coagulation and drop out, 5.1-5.2 at room temperature. Post boil or pitch pH is, in my opinion, is the most important and sets up the proper mouthfeel, bitterness and finish of the beer. Typically the preboil would be adjusted to the proper pitch pH of 5.1-5.2. It will slightly move during the boil, mostly down. Darker beers should have a slightly higher pitch pH.
 
But of course pre-boil pH has little to do with mash pH, the latter mostly dependent upon the grain used.
 
Ph meter ordered and water sample shipped out to ward labs today. The thing I dont understand is, I had made some very good beer, on a half barrel sys, and made a few great batches of wine on the well water here. As soon as I got the sabco sys, its been hard to get a drinkable brew. A few changes happened with the new sys including, a new spike 15 gal fermenter, carb stone used as o2 stone that tri clamps to the fermenter, transferring boiling wert to the fermenter, ability to control temp in the fermenter, pumping beer from the fermenter to kegs purged of oxy, etc.

Thanks for all the great info, study a lot I shall when I have time!!
 
I hope you sent off pre-softener water to be tested. Water softeners replace Calcium and Magnesium ions with Sodium ions. Water Softeners do not impact (alter) Alkalinity, Sulfate, or Chloride.

BTW, that's a mighty fine brewing rig you have there!
 
Silver_Is_Money said:
I hope you sent off pre-softener water to be tested. Water softeners replace Calcium and Magnesium ions with Sodium ions. Water Softeners do not impact (alter) Alkalinity, Sulfate, or Chloride.

BTW, that's a mighty fine brewing rig you have there!
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Sending in both! When the house was first built, 22 years ago, the owners were told they need a softener. I have used the unsoftened water for a few things and is perfectly clear, no rust or discolorations at all!
Yup, good brew sys, got it from a local guy that has a micro brew, he no longer needed such a small sys!
 
I recently went through a similar issue when I upgraded to a fancy 3 vessel SSBrewtech setup. I learned a ton chasing down every variable but in the end my problem came down to using the RIMS to raise my mash temp up to 168-170 before sparging. As soon as I went back to straight sparge water at 168-170 over my mash at 149-152 all my issues went away…. Well all of my brewing related ones anyway.

My problems were low attenuation and all my beers had a similar malty flavor… maybe with a tad of iron mixed in.

For the PH tannin from over sparging, I now pre acidify my sparge water to 5.2 -5.4. Works miracles. I left a pump on accidentally when I should have been done sparging and ran an extra 2 gallons through my mash for final runnings near 1.001. But once I boiled everything down to my target OG, my efficiency was way high and the beer came out great and with no odd flavors what so ever.

My lesson was going back to my previous process on the new system skipping the bells and whistles. Good luck!
 
Dornbox said:
I recently went through a similar issue when I upgraded to a fancy 3 vessel SSBrewtech setup. I learned a ton chasing down every variable but in the end my problem came down to using the RIMS to raise my mash temp up to 168-170 before sparging. As soon as I went back to straight sparge water at 168-170 over my mash at 149-152 all my issues went away…. Well all of my brewing related ones anyway.

My problems were low attenuation and all my beers had a similar malty flavor… maybe with a tad of iron mixed in.

For the PH tannin from over sparging, I now pre acidify my sparge water to 5.2 -5.4. Works miracles. I left a pump on accidentally when I should have been done sparging and ran an extra 2 gallons through my mash for final runnings near 1.001. But once I boiled everything down to my target OG, my efficiency was way high and the beer came out great and with no odd flavors what so ever.

My lesson was going back to my previous process on the new system skipping the bells and whistles. Good luck!
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Thanks much, more to ponder on! Did you continue to recirculate the mash water for the whole mash? Any thoughts on why raising the temp with the rims made a difference?
 
Just got my water report in, high ph but the other data dosent mean much to me, can anyone help? Thanks

pH 8.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 520
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.87
Cations / Anions, me/L 9.2 / 9.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 54
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 106.7
Magnesium, Mg 17
Total Hardness, CaCO3 338
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 81
Chloride, Cl 39
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 179
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 148
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
 
That is very hard water. The total hardness is at 338, but the bicarbonate is lower, which helps. The water would work well for a stout, but for anything else it would have to be diluted with RO or distilled water. Lighter beers like IPA/Pale Ales, Pilsners, Cream Ale, Helles etc. need soft water. I don't like to see those beers exceed 25 ppm bicarbonate because the bitterness gets really sharp and lingering. Ambers and browns can get up to 75-100 ppm total hardness. The darker malts add acid to the mash/wort which brings down the pH.

The good news is that because your water is so hard, you can brew any beer because you can hit the water profile simply by diluting with R/O- distilled water. The chloride to sulfate ratio is not bad. I think if you venture into blending you can make any beer you want. Adding hardness to water is damn near impossible. Removing it is much easier. The really light beers I mentioned before can be brewed with R/O water and some water salts can be added to bring up the calcium to a level of 70-100 PPM.

Edit: Your sodium level is a little high, but not bad. I would not add any table salt to the water if you use this water straight up. You don't want to exceed 100ppm in sodium.
 
HighVoltageMan! said:
That is very hard water. The total hardness is at 338, but the bicarbonate is lower, which helps. The water would work well for a stout, but for anything else it would have to be diluted with RO or distilled water. Lighter beers like IPA/Pale Ales, Pilsners, Cream Ale, Helles etc. need soft water. I don't like to see those beers exceed 25 ppm bicarbonate because the bitterness gets really sharp and lingering. Ambers and browns can get up to 75-100 ppm total hardness. The darker malts add acid to the mash/wort which brings down the pH.

The good news is that because your water is so hard, you can brew any beer because you can hit the water profile simply by diluting with R/O- distilled water. The chloride to sulfate ratio is not bad. I think if you venture into blending you can make any beer you want. Adding hardness to water is damn near impossible. Removing it is much easier. The really light beers I mentioned before can be brewed with R/O water and some water salts can be added to bring up the calcium to a level of 70-100 PPM.

Edit: Your sodium level is a little high, but not bad. I would not add any table salt to the water if you use this water straight up. You don't want to exceed 100ppm in sodium.
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Thanks so much for info!!! Its a good thing I brew mostly dark beers! The beers I nave brewed has had much. Bitterness! Getting e,cited about resuming brewing !
 
Dogwood said:
Just got my water report in, high ph but the other data dosent mean much to me, can anyone help? Thanks

pH 8.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 520
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.87
Cations / Anions, me/L 9.2 / 9.1
ppm
Sodium, Na 54
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 106.7
Magnesium, Mg 17
Total Hardness, CaCO3 338
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 81
Chloride, Cl 39
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 179
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 148
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
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You have pretty hard water, likely good for dark beer. You'll need to soften it for lighter beers. BTW, the water's pH doesn't matter much, the alkalinity does.
 
Dogwood said:
Thanks much, more to ponder on! Did you continue to recirculate the mash water for the whole mash? Any thoughts on why raising the temp with the rims made a difference?
Click to expand...

I still use my RIMS to change my rest temps / step mash and I recirculate for the entire mash time while using the RIMS to hold rest temps. I have been careful to use a narrower temp window while step mashing as this was a fairly recent discovery.

Also, I've had a couple of my low attenuated beers come around with some extended lagering. They went from meh to really good. I'm not sure if it was the Safale-05 that kept chugging away at lower temps or what but they certainly dried out and the malty sweetness dissipated and the beers cleared. I did use Salifine at kegging time but there was no immediate effects.

I'm just happy to be brewing quaffable brews again that are worth sharing. Good luck and don't give up. Whatever the issue is, you will find it if you keep trying and researching and in the end, you'll be a better brewer for it!
 
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