Lowering the FG in the recipe builder

[Dirty Dingo Brewing CO.]

So I've really been struggling getting my FG into the right threshold on certain recipe. What (Besides mashing temp) is the largest contribution to FG?

I play with these recipes all the time, and I can't seem to find out how to drop the FG into the level that it needs to be. The only solution I've found is to use less base malt. But I want the same ABV!

Thoughts?

 

[GFHomebrew]

So I've really been struggling getting my FG into the right threshold on certain recipe. What (Besides mashing temp) is the largest contribution to FG?

I play with these recipes all the time, and I can't seem to find out how to drop the FG into the level that it needs to be. The only solution I've found is to use less base malt. But I want the same ABV!

Thoughts?

Change the Attenuation % on the yeast is one way I've used 80% I've found is a great bench Mark.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Three things drive final gravity. Grist composition, yeast type and mash temperature.

The most prominent of the 3 is grist composition. Home brewers use too much crystal malts which contain high levels of dextrin. Its’s something the beer needs, but too much can cause higher finish gravity and the beer to taste sweeter than it should. If you happen to brew a mild or something similar, then that’s a good thing. German, Belgian and most American styles are generally dry in the finish, with lower finishing gravities. Substitute darker base malts for crystal malts, such as Munich.

The second being yeast. Some yeast will produce lower attenuation, others need more attention to get it out of them. Still others just finish high, Windsor, Wyeast 1318 are some that finish high. To coax the yeast to finish lower, aeration, pitch rates and temperature all play a role. The biggest mistake homebrewers make is to not properly aerate wort when using a liquid yeast. Dry yeast performs much better then liquid yeast when oxygen levels are low in wort, which is a consideration. If the yeast get too warm, they may quit or more likely too cold and drop out before they’re done or just stall. Stalled fermentation are most often caused by pitch rates that are too low or by oxygen levels that were too low at the time of pitch.

The last thing is the mash. I have found that if I mash between 144-148F, the mash needs more time, up to 90 minutes. If I mash above 150F, I stick to one hour. I also do step mashed, but it may not have any bearing on final gravity. The longer time at lower temperatures allow the beta amylase to produce highly fermentable wort with simpler sugars that the yeast can easily metabolize.

 

[Hawkbox]

Try adding sugar in, it is 100% fermentable so it will drop your FG.

 

[Dirty Dingo Brewing CO.]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll definitely be using it. I work in my LHBS and actually start part time brewing commercially next week for Stockade Brewing Co. here in Sydney. Even with all the books, research, and brewing friends, NOTHING BEATS BREWERSFRIEND FORUMS!!!! You guys are awesome!!!

 

[Mark Farrall]

Congratulations. Got a can of Old Money from them in the fridge at the moment. They do some awesome imperial stouts (as well as other stuff).

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll definitely be using it. I work in my LHBS and actually start part time brewing commercially next week for Stockade Brewing Co. here in Sydney. Even with all the books, research, and brewing friends, NOTHING BEATS BREWERSFRIEND FORUMS!!!! You guys are awesome!!!

Hell yeah man congratulations I hope you fare well at your new trade!
If ever I venture down to Sydney I'll have to check youse out.

 

[Minbari]

Three things drive final gravity. Grist composition, yeast type and mash temperature.

The most prominent of the 3 istist composition. Home brewers use too much crystal malts which contain high levels of dextrin. Its’s something the beer needs, but too much can cause higher finish gravity and the beer to taste sweeter than it should. If you happen to brew a mild or something similar, then that’s a good thing. German, Belgian and most American styles are generally dry in the finish, with lower finishing gravities. Substitute darker base malts for crystal malts, such as Munich.

The second being yeast. Some yeast will produce lower attenuation, others need more attention to get it out of them. Still others just finish high, Windsor, Wyeast 1318 are some that finish high. To coax the yeast to finish lower, aeration, pitch rates and temperature all play a role. The biggest mistake homebrewers make is to not properly aerate wort when using a liquid yeast. Dry yeast performs much better then liquid yeast when oxygen levels are low in wort, which is a consideration. If the yeast get too warm, they may quit or more likely too cold and drop out before they’re done or just stall. Stalled fermentation are most often caused by pitch rates that are too low or by oxygen levels that were too low at the time of pitch.

The last thing is the mash. I have found that if I mash between 144-148F, the mash needs more time, up to 90 minutes. If I mash above 150F, I stick to one hour. I also do step mashed, but it may not have any bearing on final gravity. The longer time at lower temperatures allow the beta amylase to produce highly fermentable wort with simpler sugars that the yeast can easily metabolize.

Did not know the thing about liquid yeast. Do you know why that is? It would explain some of ferments that took a little longer to start than s04 dry

I have found the same thing with the lower mash temps. Takes longer, but seems to work better. I do the iodine test every 15 minutes after about 50 minutes to verify its done

 

[dmtaylor]

Yeast and mash TIME (not temperature). Try mashing at just about any temperature, not just for 60-90 minutes but how about 2-3 hours, or overnight. I don't know how the software will deal with very long mash times, but I do know this helps a lot in the real world.

And/or trade a pound of base malt for plain sugar.

 

[Minbari]

Yeast and mash TIME (not tsugerature). Try mashing at just about any temperature, not just for 60-90 minutes but how about 2-3 hours, or overnight. I don't know how the software will deal with very long mash times, but I do know this helps a lot in the real world.

And/or trade a pound of base malt for plain sugar.

Just curious, what is the result of this? Once all the starch converts to sugar what does additional time do?

 

[dmtaylor]

Just curious, what is the result of this? Once all the starch converts to sugar what does additional time do?

I like to think of sugars and dextrins and starches all being on one spectrum, and the capability of yeast to ferment each of these are also on a spectrum. Most sugars are very simple and most yeasts can eat most sugars quite well, but some have a harder time with the more complex sugars such as lactose and maltotriose. Starch is really just a very long chain sugar. And what we refer to as dextrins are more in the middle, more complex than lactose but compared to starches are very simple.

With a "standard" 60-minute mash, you'll have mostly sugars, some dextrins, and little starch. If you extend the mash time, you'll have progressively more simpler sugars, less dextrins, and less starch. The wort just becomes easier and easier for the yeast to ferment. A longer mash time allows any active enzymes that have not been denatured (SOME will almost always survive) to continue to chop down dextrins and complex sugars into simpler ones. As long as temperatures remained below about 170 F (76 C), it doesn't matter how cool the temperature, the enzymes will continue to take action for a very long time if allowed. So you'll have more and more simple sugars that the yeast can eat. This of course will ultimately result in higher attenuation and lower FG. A lot of folks have tried an overnight mash to accomplish this. Mash in before you go to bed, wake up, run off, and continue brewing the next day. Yes there's still enzymes in there taking action the entire time. Not a whole lot, but some. So you can get a very dry beer this way, which is perfect for saisons for example. Or, just try 90 minutes or 120 or 150 or 180 or whatever you like. All of it, everything, is on a spectrum. And some yeasts will see a much greater benefit from these variables than others will.

So, play around, and see what you can learn in your own brew house. There really are no rules. Try anything. You can usually make great beer no matter what you do. Go wild.

 

[Hawkbox]

Nice, good luck on the brewing. If I ever get back over there for work I'll have to use it as an excuse to visit the brewery.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Did not know the thing about liquid yeast. Do you know why that is?

Because the yeast has been inactive for a long time due to packing and storage. Oxygen is needed for lipid synthesis, the lipids are missing in liquid yeast. If the yeast has no source of lipids, the cell walls in the budding cells are too "hard" to allow for nutrients to pass from into the cell and waste to be expelled from the cell and can lead to petite cells. This condition can lead to incomplete fermentation, off flavors and generally bad beer.

Dry yeast has the lipids and sterols it needs to reproduce/bud up to 4-5 times without the need for oxygen. These lipid and sterol reserves in dry yeast are due to the growing process. Brewers who do not have a means of proper aeration or just starting out should start with dry yeast.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Three things drive final gravity. Grist composition, yeast type and mash temperature.

The most prominent of the 3 is grist composition. Home brewers use too much crystal malts which contain high levels of dextrin. Its’s something the beer needs, but too much can cause higher finish gravity and the beer to taste sweeter than it should. If you happen to brew a mild or something similar, then that’s a good thing. German, Belgian and most American styles are generally dry in the finish, with lower finishing gravities. Substitute darker base malts for crystal malts, such as Munich.

I once carried on a conversation with a couple of LoDO gurus who claimed to be on good authority in stating that nigh-on all real German Lagers use on the order of ~6-7% Caramel/Crystal malt by weight of grist. That was several years ago. I have no idea to this day if there is any validity in it.

I have seen a blurb online wherein a guy (the author of the news story) was interviewing a smaller Czech Pilsner commercial brewer in the city of Pilsen, and asked if the somewhat darker hue of his lager came from decoction mashing, whereby the interpreter inquired and then replied "Infusion mash". The question then went back to the Czech brewer as to where did the color come from, and the brewer hedged a bit and then spoke to the interpreter, who then stated "the color comes from crystal malt".

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I once carried on a conversation with a couple of LoDO gurus who claimed to be on good authority in stating that nigh-on all real German Lagers use on the order of ~6-7% Caramel/Crystal malt by weight of grist. That was several years ago. I have no idea to this day if there is any validity in it.

I have seen a blurb online wherein a guy (the author of the news story) was interviewing a smaller Czech Pilsner commercial brewer in the city of Pilsen, and asked if the somewhat darker hue of his lager came from decoction mashing, whereby the interpreter inquired and then replied "Infusion mash". The question then went back to the Czech brewer as to where did the color come from, and the brewer hedged a bit and then spoke to the interpreter, who then stated "the color comes from crystal malt".

Brian Rabe and I are in the same homebrew club and he has told me that when LODO is utilized, the crystal/caramel malt has better flavor. I think there is a lot of truth in this, Germans do use crystal malts in their beers. I use crystal malts in some beers, but it’s kept to 3-5%. Keeping the mash at 145F for 90-120 minutes produces good attenuation even with some high dextrin malts. I typically get 79-84% from 2124 lager yeast.

The problem is that some homebrewers use way too much and then mash at higher temperatures. It can work for some beers, but a little crystal malt goes a long way.