Mash calculator, total water

oliver

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This might be too individualistic of a request... Can we add calculated Total Water Volume in the mash calculator page, placed underneath the Infusion Table? https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

Reasoning, doing BIAB Step Mashing, and trying to bring my final boiling infusion up to full volume to avoid any kind of sparging. It's a guess and check for me, so I'm trying to distribute out the total water in my steps from 105, 140, and 150 without having to math it out on the side. I like the mash calculator instantaneously tells me you'll need eg. 4.3qt boiling, but it's easy to overshoot volume needed on a BIAB no sparge without getting that initial strike water volume. I hope that makes sense?
 
alternatively, i tried making it in a spreadsheet if some one wants to check my math..this all just to tell me if i'm using the right amount of total water because I don't do sparge.

I used the standard blending equation..
((Temperature 1 * Volume 1)+(Boiling * Volume 2)) / (Volume 1 + Volume 2),
and to find my new temp, I use the volume of quarts as the variable in my spreadsheet with the total volume below to know if i'm under or over what I need.

But then my results were off from Brewer's Friend because I think it takes grain weight into consideration.

So then I looked at Palmer equation found here: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions
and as I understand...
(((Target Temperature–Current Temp) * ((0.2 * Grain Weight) + Current Total Mash Volume))) / (Actual infusion temp – Target Temperature)
So in that equation he's using 0.2*Grain Weight as a constant, I think I'm still off in my spreadsheet as how to incorporate the 0.2 constant number into the blending equation. In my spreadsheet I just did the entire blending equation, and then at the end subtracted (0.2*grain weight) to compensate for grain, but I could be totally off.

attached a screenshot from a 2.5 gallon batch i'm planning soon to see if i'm even remotely close.
 

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This is on the to-do list! I'll add this forum thread to that ticket to followup as it gets tested, and released.
 
This is on the to-do list! I'll add this forum thread to that ticket to followup as it gets tested, and released.

Adding on to this thread, I know there is no decoction feature on the site, but in the recipe editor and within the mash guidelines, if I select Decoction from type, and enter its volume, it adds that amount to the total volume of water needed.

Can there be a feature if set to decoction, the volume input doesn't contribute to the total volume? See screenshot, I'm making a 2.5 gallon batch, aiming for using 3.625 gallons full volume strike water, but because of decoction volumes, it thinks I'm trying to use 6.46 gallons of water.
 

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Adding on to this thread, I know there is no decoction feature on the site, but in the recipe editor and within the mash guidelines, if I select Decoction from type, and enter its volume, it adds that amount to the total volume of water needed.

Can there be a feature if set to decoction, the volume input doesn't contribute to the total volume? See screenshot, I'm making a 2.5 gallon batch, aiming for using 3.625 gallons full volume strike water, but because of decoction volumes, it thinks I'm trying to use 6.46 gallons of water.
This will be resolved in the upcoming mash guidelines update.

Do you decoct often, I've never done it personally so might have a few questions or testing to run by you once it's ready for public testing.
 
Do you decoct often, I've never done it personally so might have a few questions or testing to run by you once it's ready for public testing.

Yeah let me know, I've done two decoction beers thus far, and plan on 4 more triples this march. I have a decoction spreadsheet calculator I can send you, gives you decoction volumes needed for each rest temp, and calculates boil off rate for each decoction which tells you how much water needed for full volume or estimates how much total sparge needed.
 
This will be resolved in the upcoming mash guidelines update.

Do you decoct often, I've never done it personally so might have a few questions or testing to run by you once it's ready for public testing.
I can probably provide some input - several decoctions on my German beers.... The problem is going to be there are so many decoction profiles out there ranging from single, Hochkurz, double, triple.... You can probably get by with two entries, thick decoction and thin decoction, each a fraction of the total mash. You'll need step temperature, step time, and boil time - you can pull boil temperature from the profile (altitude or temperature entered). And then you have boil-off of the decoction.... It's complex!
 
Adding on to this thread, I know there is no decoction feature on the site, but in the recipe editor and within the mash guidelines, if I select Decoction from type, and enter its volume, it adds that amount to the total volume of water needed.

Can there be a feature if set to decoction, the volume input doesn't contribute to the total volume? See screenshot, I'm making a 2.5 gallon batch, aiming for using 3.625 gallons full volume strike water, but because of decoction volumes, it thinks I'm trying to use 6.46 gallons of water.

@oliver
Oddly, @Pricelessbrewing and I (and a developer) just had a Zoom call Saturday about this very thing! Well, other things too, relating to mash guidelines but I mentioned that we do have users that do decoctions and/or step mashes, even if it’s just decocting to mash out temperatures.
Like @Nosybear I’ve done several different version from single, double, triple, but usually I do either a Hochkurz or a single to mashout. One thing that we should note is that for most decoctions, you’ll pull the thickest part of the mash to avoid denaturing the enzymes, but for a mashout decoction, you’d pull a much thinner sample because at that point you DO want to halt the enzymatic activity.

A somewhat humorous aside:
I do have to mention this- I’ve typed this on my iPad and with autocorrect, decoctions was changed to “decorations”, “denaturing” to something incomprehensible, and so even though it barely makes sense when correct it was hilariously bad with autocorrect!
 
here's a screenshot of my spreadsheet I use, if anyone wants it, message me your email and I can send it as a numbers or excel file.

Also if I'm missing anything or if I screwed up any equations, please point them out and let me know where this can be more accurate.
 

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Some personal input into decoctions.. Just did a triple this morning. And I did some slightly longer decoction boils to see how much I can darken the final color of the beer. Well, the longer you boil the decoction, the less volume you can infuse, and thus can't hit your desired temperature.

eg. I pull 4 quarts from the mash tun, boil it for 20 minutes, i've now lost (on my system), 1 quart. So the theoretical calculation is something like, start at 123ºF, pull 4 quarts, boil for 20 minutes, reinfuse and step it to 145ºF... However, I'm not actually infusing 4 quarts, I'm infusing 3 quarts, so I'll only be able to get to 140ºF. Need to think about how to add this to my spreadsheet calculator, but it should be fairly simple? Just account for boil rate and losses when calculating infusion volume.
 
I think this is right, if some one can confirm or correct my mathing.

Decoction Volume = (Total Mash Volume x (Target Temp – Start Temp ) / (Boil Temp – Start Temp)) + (Decoction Boil Time x Boil Rate)
 
I think this is right, if some one can confirm or correct my mathing.

Decoction Volume = (Total Mash Volume x (Target Temp – Start Temp ) / (Boil Temp – Start Temp)) + (Decoction Boil Time x Boil Rate)

I’ve never noticed having a big loss in the volume- but I don’t think I’ve boiled that long I guess. Since there is very little liquid in the pulled decoction (except for the mash out decoction), just enough to boil without the grain scorching, I really haven’t noticed any decreased volume that would make a difference. Losing 25% at every decoction seems excessive to me- how thick is this decoction when you’re done?
 
I’ve never noticed having a big loss in the volume- but I don’t think I’ve boiled that long I guess. Since there is very little liquid in the pulled decoction (except for the mash out decoction), just enough to boil without the grain scorching, I really haven’t noticed any decreased volume that would make a difference. Losing 25% at every decoction seems excessive to me- how thick is this decoction when you’re done?
2.5 gallon batch, started with 14.5 quarts water aiming for 12 quart boil size.

I did a 5 minute boil, a 10 minute boil, and then a 15 minute boil yesterday on this triple decocted bock.

Dough in at 104ºF,
pulled 2.73 quarts, about 80% grain just from looking at my measuring cups.. Boiled for 5 minutes,
Stepped it perfectly to 124ºF.
pulled 4.38 quarts, seemed like more grain on this one, boiled for 10 minutes.
Stepped it perfectly again to 145ºF.
pulled 3.6 quarts, i'd say this one was more like 60-70% grains, boiled for 15 minutes.
looking at it, I lost a lot of temperature on this round, after pulling this decoction the mash tun went down to 138ºF.
So that infusion only got me to 153, aiming for 158-160.

The math:
I pull 3.6 quarts, my boil rate is 0.05 qt / minute, which means in the 15 minutes I boiled, I lose 0.75 quarts.. 3.6–0.75= 2.85 qt infusion back in. So my mash tun volume should have been at that point, based on previous decoction boil offs and the amount pulled currently in the kettle, 10.15 quarts.
blending equation
((10.15qt*138ºF)+(2.85qt*212ºF))/13qt = 154ºF ... where as if the final decoction had been a 5 minute boil, I'd be reinfusing 3.35 quarts... ((10.15*138)+(3.35*212))/13 = 162ºF, where I wanted it to be in that Alpha spot.

I think boil time of decoction needs to be taken into account, I was attempting to make a Helles less pale and more gold in color by letting my roux cook a little longer.
 
This will be resolved in the upcoming mash guidelines update.

Do you decoct often, I've never done it personally so might have a few questions or testing to run by you once it's ready for public testing.
A few of my friends and I regularly do decoctions now. We'd be happy to test as well.
 
Some personal input into decoctions.. Just did a triple this morning. And I did some slightly longer decoction boils to see how much I can darken the final color of the beer. Well, the longer you boil the decoction, the less volume you can infuse, and thus can't hit your desired temperature.

eg. I pull 4 quarts from the mash tun, boil it for 20 minutes, i've now lost (on my system), 1 quart. So the theoretical calculation is something like, start at 123ºF, pull 4 quarts, boil for 20 minutes, reinfuse and step it to 145ºF... However, I'm not actually infusing 4 quarts, I'm infusing 3 quarts, so I'll only be able to get to 140ºF. Need to think about how to add this to my spreadsheet calculator, but it should be fairly simple? Just account for boil rate and losses when calculating infusion volume.
We've found that keeping a jug of distilled on hand is 'handy'. We make note of our decoction's original volume in the pot, and then top off right near the end of boiling before adding back to the mash. (not after the boil, so we don't lose heat) We then measure how much we've added in total for all decoctions.

You can then use this number to either adjust your decoction step volumes, or just forget about it since you've replaced the water anyway. Of course, you have the added complication of needing to hit temps. We have direct fire ability on our mash so that is less of a concern for us. (we always have to supplement the temp rise anyway. I can see this is quite complicated for those using coolers or mash tuns they can't directly heat)
 
I’ve never noticed having a big loss in the volume- but I don’t think I’ve boiled that long I guess. Since there is very little liquid in the pulled decoction (except for the mash out decoction), just enough to boil without the grain scorching, I really haven’t noticed any decreased volume that would make a difference. Losing 25% at every decoction seems excessive to me- how thick is this decoction when you’re done?

We recently did two decoctions for an Alt, both involved going straight to boil without rests. (interesting method) The first was very thick, probably the same as a traditional mash ratio, (we do full-volume BIAB, so normally quite thin for the main mash) the second was about 50:50 grain to water or thinner. Between the two, we lost ⅓ of a gallon total. Both decoctions were about 1 gallon in volume and were boiled for 20 minutes.

We only just started measuring decoction losses, so we'll get more data in a week or so for our next two brews. (Kölsch & Hefe)
 
2.5 gallon batch, started with 14.5 quarts water aiming for 12 quart boil size.

I pull 3.6 quarts, my boil rate is 0.05 qt / minute, which means in the 15 minutes I boiled, I lose 0.75 quarts.

First, what is this voodoo you've divined that gets you 2.5 gal of packaged beer starting with only 3gal pre-boil? Have you discovered a way to practically eliminate boil-off, trub and losses? (kidding of course, but I *am* curious)

Second, that is a crazy amount of boil-off for that short of time. (especially considering your main system has practically no boil loss) Boil-off rate is determined by a nutty amount of variables, a few of which are ambient temp, wind-speed, and humidity. (not even considering the heat of the flame under the pot) If you are indoors, that practically eliminates those three variables unless you have a stove hood on full gale sucking the decoction out through the roof. Perhaps you are boiling your decoctions 'too hard'?

Another thing I noticed, you're working with math to way too many decimal places for the instruments you are using. For example, how did you measure 2.73 qts for the first decoction?

.23 of a quart (since 2.5qts is easy enough to measure) is 7.36 ounces. Are you really measuring to that resolution? .36 ounces could be easily less than 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch in a measuring cup. That could be the difference in the thickness of the *line* on the cup.

My point here is that first, I'd figure out what my measurement 'resolution' is, then realize that my real-world ± when I measure is going to thus cause a bigger ± in my equations. (thus, you are estimating/rounding throughout, not just at the end)

And that could very well be why your volumes seem whacky. You're assuming a precision that isn't there.

Find a metal 'yard stick' or other ruler tall enough for your vessels. It needs to be incremented to 1/32. (1/64 is just too hard to read) Then figure out your vessel dimensions. For a kettle, you'll need your diameter. Your gallons/inch will be:

[π (d ÷ 2)^2] ÷ 231

Then multiply your height (vessel or actual level, whichever you want to measure) by that result. That is about as accurate as you are going to get. Measuring with cups or pitchers just won't cut it. (if you need precision) You can figure a similar factor for your decoction pot. If you have an odd shaped vessel (like a rectangular cooler with rounded corners) you're going to have to do more fancy math, or estimate, (!!) or install and carefully calibrate a sight-glass with very precise gradations.

I've traversed that rabbit hole. Then I poured a beer and relaxed and stop worrying about it. After all, we're just cooking, not engineering an interplanetary lander.

'Close enough' counts not only for Horseshoes and Hand Grenades, but also beer.
 

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